U.S. Should Sanction All Members of China’s Communist Party, Says Hong Kong Businessman Elmer Yuan

June 29, 2020 Updated: July 7, 2020

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How can the United States effectively hold the Chinese Communist Party accountable for its abuses, from the coronavirus coverup to its encroachments on Hong Kong?

Why is the Chinese leadership choosing to impose the National Security Law on Hong Kong even though it will likely hurt China’s economy?

And, through the eyes of a Hong Kong businessman, how is the Chinese regime actually waging war on the U.S. and the free world?

In this episode, we sit down with Elmer Yuan, CEO of Golden Bridge Technology Inc.

This is American Thought Leaders 🇺🇸, and I’m Jan Jekielek.

Jan Jekielek: Elmer Yuan, so great to have you on American Thought Leaders.

Elmer Yuan: Thank you very much for inviting me.

Mr. Jekielek: Elmer, you are here in America to advocate for Hong Kong. I’ve just been learning about your amazing life history. You have such an interesting vantage point. You’ve lived most of your years in Hong Kong but a substantial number of years in mainland China and also in the U.S.

Mr. Yuan: Yes.

Mr. Jekielek: You’ve done business extensively in all these places, so you have a very, very interesting vantage point. I want to make sure we take full advantage of that. Tell me, how are you seeing this situation in Hong Kong right now that everyone’s talking about?

Mr. Yuan: It’s terrible. It’s like a tsunami coming in a matter of days. … Everybody’s aiming for July 1. When that tsunami comes, all the freedom, all kinds of freedom: religion, speech, everything will be gone, because the Chinese want Hong Kong to be similar to the cities in China. As you know, it’s a totalitarian regime, and they want to control everything.

Mr. Jekielek: Of course, you’re talking about this pending national security law with details forthcoming.

Mr. Yuan: Exactly. The U.S. is trying to help. I think there was a meeting in Hawaii where Secretary [Mike] Pompeo tried to warn [the CCP], but they wouldn’t listen and they are moving forward anyway. The U.S. is ready to do something, and you can see in Congress some resolution or law being passed quite urgently in order to meet the deadline. They are still trying to tell the Chinese to stop, but it’s not going to happen.

Mr. Jekielek: It’s an interesting day to be doing this interview, because there were actually two significant events. There was a resolution and a bill. There was the Hong Kong Autonomy Act and this resolution that was put forth supporting the [Sino-British] Joint Declaration. … I think the Hong Kong Autonomy Act passed unanimously.

Mr. Yuan: That’s very significant, because that act involves mandatory punishment of individuals, businessmen, and companies that support this [Hong Kong] national security [law], because in essence, the CCP was violating the law last year. Last year, they passed this Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act … In essence, [the Hong Kong Autonomy Act] means not only they are going to sanction the government officials but also those individuals—and in Hong Kong, as you know, very rich people, very rich and powerful people—and very big companies, including the banks, such as Bank of China, Hong Kong Shanghai Bank, [Standard] Chartered Bank, who are all in support [of the Hong Kong national security law]. Honestly, they are under duress from the CCP.

Mr. Jekielek: … There are questions in people’s minds. If the Chinese Communist Party in the mainland knows that passing this national security law will cause them big financial trouble potentially—I think some large, large chunk of foreign direct investment goes through Hong Kong into China—why are they still doing it?

Mr. Yuan: A tyrannical regime is different from a free world. In the free world, the interest of the people counts. In a totalitarian regime, only the leader, one single leader, his “face”, his reputation counts. Everything else is secondary. … He was very upset last year with the demonstrations in Hong Kong, and … Trump warned him not to send in the People’s Liberation Army, so he didn’t. Hong Kong [is] still in turmoil up to now. After the pandemic, Hong Kong is now okay with regards to the pandemic, so he needs to do something draconian to show his fellow people [that] he can control Hong Kong. That’s all.

He is risking the entire economy of Hong Kong. Hong Kong supplies 70 percent of the foreign currency into China. He is also risking the entire China being sanctioned, like Russia or like Iran. It’s a huge price, but they don’t care as long as he’s supported by his own people under communism. … [If] he is strong enough to fight the rest of the world, he will remain in power. That’s what he’s playing right now: to remain in power. People’s welfare or business and the economy of the country don’t count.

Mr. Jekielek: It’s interesting. … You became this overnight internet, social media sensation, appeared out of nowhere with tons and tons of interest, because you were presumably speaking in a way that a lot of Hong Kongers especially are very, very interested in hearing. How did that happen?

Mr. Yuan: It’s not by design, truly by accident. I was going to come here earlier, because I thought I can help Hong Kong by doing some so-called lobbying. I stopped off in Hong Kong to see my kids before I came. They have this fourteen-day quarantine, and in Hong Kong, it’s serious quarantine. They put you in a hotel and give you a room key that only works once. For fourteen days, it’s solitary confinement. Nobody can visit you and you’re all by yourself.

By the end of the tenth day, I was so bored, so my daughter did a couple of YouTube [videos] and asked me, “What do you think about this national security law?” I gave her my honest opinion. Maybe I was also frustrated with this quarantine, so I spoke with pretty strong wording. Suddenly, those YouTube [videos] became viral in Hong Kong. It’s in Cantonese.

The Hong Kong people were desperate, because this law is coming, and [the CCP] says that they want this law to be passed before July 1st. It’s very, very severe. They can send their police; they can send their prosecutors; they can send their judges [to Hong Kong], so Hong Kong will lose all its autonomy which was promised by the Sino-British Joint Declaration.

Anyway, my two or three YouTube [videos] became so popular. After I came out of the quarantine, my daughter said, “Why don’t you stay a little longer and build up your viewers?” So I stayed and made another twenty five to thirty videos, and that’s why your Epoch Times in Hong Kong came to me, and [I] also did about five or six.

Then … I really gave more thought to the situation, so I’ve decided [that] in order to speak without any hesitation, I used WeChat—when in China, they only use WeChat—to contact all my business associates to count me out, because I do not want to contribute any more to this regime. You know [about] China: All businesses finally belong to the state.

Mr. Jekielek:  They [the government] get the final word.

Mr. Yuan: They get the final word, and they get the final benefit. Anyway, I WeChat everybody that I’m out of it, and [my business associates can] find somebody else, so I won’t cause trouble for them. Also, they can go and do their own business. I’m out, so I don’t have to worry about anything, about what not to speak, and worry about my friends and their safety and so on. After I’ve done that, I spoke very, very openly, and I didn’t even make a draft or anything. I spoke basically from my heart and they like it. Suddenly, I became a KOL [Key Opinion Leader]—one of the most popular KOLs. All I did was speak my mind, and then I started getting more organized. I said, “These kids are really suffering.” You were in Hong Kong last year.

Mr. Jekielek: Yes.

Mr. Yuan: The police were beating up the kids; there was murder, raping, disappearance, … torturing. They don’t publish it, of course, the Hong Kong newspapers. In Hong Kong, the only independent papers are The Epoch Times and the Apple Daily. The rest of all the media, the newspapers and TV, everything, has been acquired by the communist [state], so they don’t speak the truth anymore. Of course, after the passing of this bill, this national security law, I don’t think The Epoch Times or Apple Daily can survive. Basically, they will be [charged with] “treason”. They will be put in prison. All those people would be like the owner of Apple Daily,

Mr. Jekielek: Jimmy Lai.

Mr. Yuan: Jimmy Lai. All will be arrested, including myself if I return.

Mr. Jekielek: So you think that [when] July 1st hits, the details of the law are presented, and everything changes just like that.

Mr. Yuan: Yes, yes. In fact, they also talked about being able to go back in your cell phones to see all the records… . What I’m telling you now is already a crime under that law, called “splitting the country.” … Talking about autonomy, already you’re “splitting the country.” Nevermind “independence,”  just “autonomy” for Hong Kong which was promised when they signed off on the [Sino-British] Joint Declaration. That’s already a crime, a national treason, very serious.

Mr. Jekielek:  You’ve come here with some very specific goals. We discussed some of this. You’ve also been this strong advocate for these Hong Kong students protesting and so forth. What is it that you are hoping the U.S. can do?

Mr. Yuan:  Even though I don’t get into the violent part of these demonstrations, I have attended every one of them in the last twenty years or even more. Since June 4th, I have attended all the street protests or demonstrations. I also watch how these kids got beaten up by the police. The police have all the weapons, and the kids only have umbrellas. Remember last year, you were there. So these kids really suffer and … over 10,000 of them were arrested up to now, and tortured, raped and some even murdered. We know quite a few of them never came back.

… Those students from China who tried to help were shipped back to China without any Hong Kong record, and we heard they were in some camps. … Even their parents got into trouble. In China, in order to prevent … more kids from coming in[to Hong Kong], they punish the parents, so the parents will hold their kids in China. I tried to help a lot of Chinese mainland kids. They are human beings too.

Mr. Jekielek:  It’s very difficult to get the evidence to show the—

Mr. Yuan: The crimes the communists have committed over the last 71 years are all crimes against humanity. Nothing less than that, and very few of them really have evidence. It’s like against the Falun Gong, this … organ trading. They were selling their organs—live! It’s hard to find evidence because when they’re doing it, you can’t video them.

Mr. Jekielek:  [They had] to gather all the evidence [indirectly] by looking at the data, by noticing the wait times, by putting it all together over more than a decade. You’re right.

Mr. Yuan:  Their victims are mostly dead. How do you find them? They are very good at destroying evidence. Like this pandemic. They cleaned up all the evidence in Wuhan. That’s why today, even if WHO or whoever sends anybody in, there’s no evidence! At the crime scene, they have no evidence! They cleaned it up so they can keep arguing with you, “Oh yeah, the virus came from the U.S.” That’s what they’re saying. Ninety percent of the people in China were brainwashed [into thinking] that the virus came from the USA. Can you imagine?

Mr. Jekielek: That’s really interesting. We heard, certainly, some of these spokespeople suggesting this sort of thing. But then they backed down, I think, after some harsh words from Secretary Pompeo. But you’re saying that in China right now, because of this incessant propaganda, a large number of people believe it came from the U.S. right now?

Mr. Yuan: Over 90 percent.

Mr. Jekielek: How can you say that? How do you know this?

Mr. Yuan: I talked to them. I tell them what the reality is. They say, “No! It came from the U.S.” Then I say, “You guys have to apologize and worry about reparations from all over the world. It’s not [from the] U.S.” They say, “How come? We don’t owe them anything,” and they start making [excuses]. They say, “Oh, AIDS comes from the U.S. too and they should pay us.” That’s their argument. They were all … brainwashed. They firmly believe it, because nobody wants to pay reparation. It’s big money. The money is trillions of dollars, maybe over $10 trillion, the global loss.

Mr. Jekielek: Why do you think China or the Chinese Communist Party is responsible for the pandemic in a nutshell?

Mr. Yuan:  First of all, the most advanced lab for [this type of] virus is in Wuhan, this P4 lab that is designed by the French, and [this pandemic] started in Wuhan. In fact, from our record, they started having it in November—I think that’s verifiable—and they didn’t announce to the U.S. until January. Before the Chinese New Year, … January 25, they let 5 million people leave, because Wuhan is an industrial city, and those guys have to go home. Workers have to go home, so 5 million people went back [to] all over China. Even after the Chinese New Year, they let another few hundred thousand people fly overseas. It’s a huge damage to the world, and they were aware of it.

They were fully aware of it from as early as December and that’s why they were covering it up. There’s no question; they were covering it up. They destroyed all evidence and refused any U.S. expert from visiting the site. You can come to your own conclusion [on] why they do it. … You know what I mean. So it’s very, very serious.

… I don’t want to accuse anyone, but you have to understand the communist mentality. Communists think they are at war all the time. We live in a peace[ful] world, seriously. We thought the war was over after World War II. … The communist Chinese from the very start, 100 years ago, always believe they are fighting a war. If you read Marxism, their enemy is the free world, the free capitalist world. They want to keep on coming at you, sometimes low profile, sometimes high profile. … This for them [is] to develop bioweapons. This is their policy even though they sign all kinds of [agreements]. What they sign doesn’t mean anything. Right now, since the pandemic, there are more P3 and P4 labs being built. The government is funding more because this is the most effective and the cheapest weapon they can develop and cheapest to deliver. One little test tube can destroy a city.

Mr. Jekielek: It’s incredible, because let’s say that even if this virus did actually come from the market, or escaped from a lab, or whatever really happened, it’s very difficult for us to know at this point. [Nevertheless], you can certainly see the effect of a virus like this hitting the world.

Mr. Yuan: In the free world where rule of law is very important and everybody talks about evidence, I understand. I lived here 20 years. The reality is sometimes you cannot rely on evidence. Look at the Holocaust. By the time you received evidence, all the Jews were dead. Sometimes, you cannot work that way in war. This is a war they are waging against the free world. In a war, by the time you really have evidence, 90 percent of the time, the war is lost, and people died. It’s exactly what’s happening now.

You have to use another mentality. You have to use a very protective mentality. When you deal with such things, you cannot deal with them like any other country. This is a warrior country, the same as the Nazis. Nobody thought the Nazis can be so bad, but then after the war, you discover what they’ve done. That’s the problem with tyranny or totalitarianism, because people cannot challenge them. In our world, people are the master; they will not allow such things to happen. But in a totalitarian [system], the leader can make any decision; nobody can criticize him; he can kill any opposition, so he makes big mistakes, and [there’s] nobody to pull him back. It happens in history time after time. Look at … Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, Stalin. How many people got killed under Stalin? It happens again and again. Unfortunately, I think dealing with a totalitarian [regime], you have to have a different set of rules.

Mr. Jekielek: Over the last few years and especially with this whole coronavirus situation, it seems to me as if there were blinders on a lot of people’s eyes. I’m talking about people in general. Suddenly, there’s more vision here about the kind of things you’re talking about, the kind of realities we’ve been reporting on at Epoch Times for 20 years. … We were talking about these students, and one of the big reasons you’re here is to advocate for the students. How can Americans help the Hong Kong students?

Mr. Yuan: In fact, all Trump has to do is order the universities to accept them and then order the State Department to give them a visa to come in. That’s all he has to do, and treat them the same as any American kids. Very simple. It’s not really that difficult, because there are a lot of mainland Chinese students leaving from the [United] States now, because some of them are really here stealing technology. They are leaving, and so the Hong Kong student can replenish. There are 360,000 mainland Chinese students here, so 10,000 from Hong Kong is nothing.

Mr. Jekielek: You’re basically advocating for the ones that have been charged.

Mr. Yuan: Yes, exactly.

Mr. Jekielek: I see. Interesting.

Mr. Yuan: They sacrificed their lives and freedom for Hong Kong, for the freedom of Hong Kong. I think they deserve to receive a good education. Some of the congressmen I met said these young kids are almost like the Founding Fathers of the United States. That sounds funny, but this is how a free country is formed by these people with ideas.

Mr. Jekielek: You’re suggesting though that they have to leave … . So how does that work?

Mr. Yuan: … You saw them. They are very young kids—high school or just maybe university, early university. Nowadays, we have primary school kids getting arrested.

Mr. Jekielek: Yeah, I saw some reports on this.

Mr. Yuan: Yeah, it’s real! So all these kids are growing up. We need to get them a good education. [It’s the] least we can do.

Mr. Jekielek:  … The kids are one of your [main goals].

Mr. Yuan: My first mission. My second mission is the [Sino-British] Joint Declaration. As you know, today’s resolution was really condemning the Chinese for breaking the [Sino-British] Joint Declaration. They have violated almost everything. The communists don’t understand law. They still live in the Middle Ages where people who have power can order guilty or not guilty, violating and changing the law all the time. This is still mainland China. They don’t understand that when they sign an agreement, they have to live by the agreement. So after a few years, they noticed that nobody was watching, and they started violating it.

It’s exactly the same as the WTO [World Trade Organization agreements]. They promised everything; they violated everything. … In the end, they say, “Oh, that was history.” That was history! They say that the [Sino-British] Joint Declaration was history! That was an international agreement registered with the U.N. Anyway, this is their mentality. I want the sovereignty of Hong Kong … reverted back to the British. They’re not interested in running Hong Kong, so they should in turn give it back to the residents of Hong Kong before 1997. They should have a referendum, an independent public referendum to choose their own future. … It’s okay if they choose to belong to the mainland, [as long as they] choose their own fate. That’s the second point I’m proposing.

Mr. Jekielek: Who would give Hong Kong back to the British? I am not seeing the Chinese Communist Party doing that.

Mr. Yuan: Absolutely, not voluntary. This is what I believe. I believe very soon, within a matter of months, there will be conflicts either in the financial area, … America is going to punish them very severely, or they may even end up with a kinetic war in the Taiwan area or in the South China Sea. China is no match for the U.S., either in the financial area … or in a kinetic war. They will be defeated, and they will surrender, and they will sue for peace, and then there will be negotiation. I believe it’s coming.

If you notice, it’s coming. Now, I noticed that President Trump went to Camp Davis for many weekends with the chief of staff and all these generals. He’s preparing, maybe not to attack but just in case. The Chinese, when they are in desperate trouble, may do something, and I think the U.S. is ready for anything that the Chinese start. Also, have you heard about ten days ago, Secretary [Steven] Mnuchin was talking about cutting off the money going in and out of Hong Kong in U.S. dollars, of course. The minute you cut that off, that whole economy will collapse. If he cuts off Hong Kong, Hong Kong will collapse. If he cuts off China, China will collapse, like Iran, and they may sue for peace. If they do, we want Hong Kong to have self-autonomy or self-decision to determine our own future. That’s what I’m seeing.

Mr. Jekielek:  Of course, you’re a Hong Konger.

Mr. Yuan: Yes.

Mr. Jekielek:  Do you think you’re ready to see some kind of severe financial punishment like you’re describing here? Again, I know enough to know that it would be devastating.

Mr. Yuan:  Last year, the young kids said that we are willing to sacrifice to pay for freedom. You can’t get freedom and rule of law or democracy for free. The British were giving to us almost for free, because they had a good system back home, so we were enjoying freedom and the rule of law. We don’t have any democracy yet, but when the British handed us back to the Chinese, the Chinese promised at least the same as the British, but now they’re taking away everything. … The kids understand that. They want to fight for their freedom and democracy. That’s why I’m so supportive. You have to pay the price. What you’re talking about is the price that the whole Hong Kong stock market may collapse, the Hong Kong dollar will collapse, the property will collapse. It’s already collapsing now. That’s the price to pay if you want freedom and democracy, and I’m all for it.

Mr. Jekielek: There’s a lot of Americans who have deeply invested both in the mainland and … even through indices. We’re talking millions of Americans that have been into various investment funds through things like CalPERS [California Public Employees’ Retirement System] and so forth.

Mr. Yuan: Total it’s about $4 trillion, either in the stock exchange in the Chinese companies listed here, Hong Kong loans, and then mainland China. … Somehow, if we give them enough warning, they may be able to come back, and they are doing it at their own risk [in the first place]. I think President Trump has warned them repeatedly to come back, to come back, and they still keep going. The [people in] Wall Street are so greedy, so greedy and not with their own money. The money belongs to the funds; retirement funds; insurance money. It’s not their own money [that] they are risking. It’s terrible, Wall Street.

Mr. Jekielek: Maybe they don’t understand yet the reality that you’re portraying.

Mr. Yuan: When they’re playing with somebody else’s money, they don’t mind the risk. They know, they know perfectly well. They know all about the troubles in China [more] than the rest of us, because they have to do due diligence on every single company inside China.

Mr. Jekielek: We also know that the rules are different for Chinese companies.

Mr. Yuan: Oh, yeah. How could it be? How can the Chinese companies going public here enjoy a less severe rule than the American companies? It’s a joke. I don’t want to accuse the SEC [U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission]. We know that there’s a hearing going on and all these questions about the behavior of the SEC. It’s very questionable.

Mr. Jekielek: Sometime in the near future, we will have some answers to … how this is going to go. But I think there are still a lot of questions, even in Americans’ minds looking at the media, [about] how the U.S. will respond when ultimately this law passes. You’re betting that the U.S. will respond strongly.

Mr. Yuan: Yes. I think last year, the U.S. didn’t respond and only told the Chinese, “Don’t send the PLA [People’s Liberation Army] into Hong Kong.” That’s all Trump said, because he wants to get the trade deal done, which is understandable. He’s trying to make money for [the] U.S. But then we have the pandemic—everything changed. All the dynamics changed. We may not have solid evidence, but everybody believes … where the virus came from, who caused this big trouble. The delay, hiding, and allowing the people to travel here are not disputable.

So people want to see their government, the administration, doing something. If you do nothing, you see the poll is going down. That poll is not going to go up just by trading. People here want to see action. I have many American friends; I’ve been here for 20 years. They want to see action with the government. That’s why all the Congressmen, everyone I talked to, want to start some kind of legislation against the CCP or China. They too are under pressure from the voters that [they] need to do something.

Mr. Jekielek: This comes actually to a third point, which I think is very interesting to me in particular, because one of the things that I find quite important is to distinguish the Chinese Communist Party from China and from the Chinese people. In the end, it is actually a political party, it’s not the government, curiously. We had some great conversations about this. Tell me what you see as a good solution to deal with the Chinese Communist Party.

Mr. Yuan: This is my third reason for being here. Congressman Scott Perry used a good word. I was using “Outlawing the CCP Act.” We’re trying to get legislation, calling it an “Outlaw the CCP Act.” Congressman Scott Perry said, “Criminalizing the CCP Act.” What they have done in the last 71 years are crimes, not ordinary crimes but crimes against humanity. Thousands of books are written on it. Some with evidence; some without evidence. As you know, they’re so good at destroying evidence. We want to legislate that the CCP is a criminal organization and their 90 million members are basically criminals or gangsters, and they should all be sanctioned. This is the thing I’m trying to push through to Congress, and today we have very good news.

Congressman Scott Perry and Congressman Ted Yoho … are very supportive, and I believe within a few months, we may have a law, at least in the pipeline. Passing takes time, who knows, but at least you have a law, and then the communist party knows… . The 90 million members will start thinking, “Should I belong to this organization, ”

Mr. Jekielek: Criminal organization.

Mr. Yuan: “and become a criminal? I’m under the Magnitsky [Act]?” Everyone will be under the Magnitsky Act. Sometimes they will be resigning from the party or new ones will not join. … Once you join, this law will have long arms. … All the European-NATO countries, Japan, and Korea, everybody will go along with the U.S.

Then those people will lose their freedom. They know their kids can never come out. Their assets outside China will be frozen; their company [will be frozen]. Then if China sends somebody to sign a contract, most of them are party members, so nobody [will sign with the CCP], “Oh, sorry, even people like us, I don’t want to sign with you, because I have secondary sanctions against me.” No bank accounts; no credit cards; no visas. That’s what I want to hurt them [the CCP].

They are genuinely a criminal enterprise or organization. This is the legislation route. I’m also working on the judiciary route. We are going to court either privately or we’ll find some federal prosecutors to sue the CCP in the federal court. … under the Rico Act, renaming them as a criminal organization. Once the judge rules, then the 90 million … [Chinese Communist] Party members will be criminals—same thing. The judge can say [that] you are under certain sanctions and so on. I’m not even going through the administration because as you know, some people inside the administration are not really so much against the CCP. Some of them are for CCP.

Mr. Jekielek: This kind of legislation or this kind of judicial action … would be a seismic shift because effectively, the Chinese Communist Party sits on top of the government of China. It isn’t the government yet. It has its tentacles—that is one of the words that some people use. I think it’s apt—everywhere. Is this even possible?

Mr. Yuan: [Yes], because it will all happen in the [United] States. I don’t want to go to an international court, because the Chinese have infiltrated everything: WHO, human rights organization, WTO, and the Interpol, and then the Catholic Church. It’s infiltrated the Vatican, believe it or not. They’ve infiltrated everything. In the U.S., they’ve infiltrated Wall Street, most of the Ivy League schools, Hollywood, corporators—you name it. Going through the judiciary and the legislation would not be so complicated, relatively simpler. I believe I have made good progress today, and I feel quite confident.

Mr. Jekielek: Indeed, do you not fear for your life in all this?

Mr. Yuan: Of course I do, but then I’m 71 years old. I had a good life and I want to make a meaningful life. Material-wise, I was never short. I made good money and enjoyed a good life. When it comes to this point, they are forcing me in a way, but also I feel I’m doing something meaningful. It will be my legacy if I succeed. Even if I don’t succeed, it will be my legacy for my children.

Mr. Jekielek: Your daughter is actually quite involved in Hong Kong democracy efforts.

Mr. Yuan: My second daughter was very active. She was the former chairman for People Power, which was very active during the Occupy Central [protests] and also last year’s extradition [bill] demonstration, and now she is a chairman of a public company. She found herself doing very well. She’s supporting me, and I’m in the front line. We have to do something—the right thing.

Mr. Jekielek: You call this a war, and we’ve had guests on the show who have described it this way, more like a cold war, obviously, not a kinetic war. What do you mean when you say this is a war?

Mr. Yuan: The Chinese have been in war for 3000 years. They’re very experienced. They are very experienced with deceit. They consider deceit as an art to win a war. They use unconventional warfare, because [with] conventional warfare, they know they cannot win. They are no match for America or for the rest of the world. They use … tactics you never would have imagined. This is what you have to do: You have to get rid of them quick and fast. If you don’t do that, they have 90 million brains thinking of how to fight.

Mr. Jekielek: We’re talking about the Chinese Communist Party.

Mr. Yuan: Yes.

Mr. Jekielek: Okay. I see.

Mr. Yuan: We have how many? Maybe 1000 people are thinking about how to fight the Chinese. There is no match. That’s why it’s a very serious matter. Here, they are not taking them seriously enough. That’s the problem. There’s no urgency. Everybody’s more worried about the Dow Jones, Nasdaq and so on. Safety comes first. Already I don’t know how many trillions of dollars [have] been lost. What is the stock market? It’s not that much compared to the trillions of dollars lost. I feel that it’s really not coordinated. Because of the election, lots of … bipartisan bickering and so on. People should stay focused. It’s really a present danger from China, very serious, and you should be preparing for it.

Mr. Jekielek: So you’re advocating for more bipartisanship on the China issue?

Mr. Yuan: Yeah. … They are cooperating in many instances. For instance, the resolution law passed today, I’m sure it will get bipartisan support.

Mr. Jekielek: The [Hong Kong] Autonomy Act was unanimous in the Senate. We’ll see how he does in the House.

Mr. Yuan: Exactly. I think even the House will [be] unanimous, but this is not a big measure. What I’m proposing is … sanctioning the entire communist party membership, not picking 100 at a time. If you punish 100, they can replenish. They have 90 million, and they have new blood joining every day, so this [strategy] is piecemeal. You have to have a final solution. … You have to take care of the CCP once and for all, that’s what I’m saying, and you cannot have a piecemeal [plan].

This is an enemy [that] you have no idea how powerful they are, not in the sense of the Western world but that is the trouble. … I’m sure you heard about the book, The Art of War. The Art of War says [that] you should never be tired of deception when you are fighting. You should never be tired [of deception] because people say, “Oh, I don’t like deception, because this is only for the bad people.” But in a war, Sun Tzu said you should never be tired of deception. [“All warfare is based on deception”] When you have 90 million Communist Party members fighting to gain position, … they’re all thinking how to win and how to rule the world. It’s in their declaration.

Mr. Jekielek: Earlier you were talking about the power that Xi Jinping has amassed, but you also have some insight into how this Communist Party structure works and these different families. Maybe you could give us a little bit of insight. This could be a whole interview in itself.

Mr. Yuan: First of all, don’t let them fool you. There is no nation. There is no nation; that’s a facade. Nation, government, all these are facades. What is a nation? You have to have a constitution. Their constitution means nothing. … Behind all the government officials, there’s always a party secretary controlling that. Even the Prime Minister—Xi Jinping controls Li Keqiang. … Even in a restaurant, a manager is controlled by a party secretary in the back. You think you are negotiating with the manager of a factory? No, he has to report to the [Communist] Party. There’s somebody watching.

There is no nation. It’s not “one nation, two systems”; it’s “one party, two systems,” or “one gang, two systems.” The whole great land of China is dominated by one party or one gang, let’s put it that way, one criminal party. Under them, 90 million are gangsters, that’s what they are, controlling 1.4 billion slaves. That is the system. In history, you see that. In Egypt or in ancient China, that’s the same. It’s only maybe after the Second World War that you have a nation state. Then everything changed. People become the master. What they are practicing is the old system which we have practiced, the Chinese have practiced, for thousands of years.

Mr. Jekielek: But I’m sure many Chinese, especially we have all these almost 400,000 Chinese students in America, don’t think they’re slaves.

Mr. Yuan: They don’t learn law; they don’t learn your political science. They don’t learn any of that stuff. They only learn your engineering, and then they go back [to China], and use the engineering and build their industry. They don’t learn any of your constitution, the freedom, how Americans work—they don’t care. They believe they have a better system, and they’d rather be slaves. It’s like there are higher slaves, people with more power, and lower slaves. That’s how the system works. It’s a hierarchy. It’s basically a hierarchy. The more you go to China, you’ll understand. Everything is [for the Communist] Party. That’s why when the U.S. is negotiating with China, … Liu He said something, but everything goes back to Xi. That’s why he can suddenly change. [First he says] “Oh, I don’t want this,” and then suddenly comes back and says, “Sign it anyway.”

Mr. Jekielek: You’re also saying that … he’s accountable, it seems like, to somebody. Is it the party members? Who is it that makes him decide what he has to do?

Mr. Yuan:  About four years ago, he was still accountable to the Politburo. But then he changed the Constitution. Normally, he is only good for two terms, which is five years times two. He said, “I am no longer restricted by these two terms.” Look at Mr. Putin. He’s still [in power]. I mean Russia is semi-totalitarian. That’s the way it is; it’s a very simple structure.

Mr. Jekielek: So if Xi Jinping were replaced, would it be different somehow?

Mr. Yuan: No difference. No difference. … China is too big. It has to become federated, like the United States federation, and … people have to have the say. They have to take two or three generations to be able to have some kind of democracy, like Taiwan. The Chinese are capable of democracy. There’s no problem, but you have to give them time, two or three generations. Look at Taiwan. Singapore is almost [there], not as good as Taiwan. We Hong Kong people deserve to have democracy. We are very well-educated. We read the same books as you do. … Only … we were not willing to pay the price. Now the kids say, “We are willing to pay the price and become a real nation.”

Mr. Jekielek: Any final words before we finish up?

Mr. Yuan: I think the U.S. is under severe threat. The Chinese have not given up. Look at this meeting in Hawaii. After the meeting, they just carry on with the National Security Act, meaning they have some cards, [but] we don’t know what cards they have. We know power-wise, the U.S. is so much more superior, but for them to carry on with what they are doing in Hong Kong means they do have some hidden cards. We need to do something very urgently.

… The U.S. likes to use this “measured response.” That is not good enough. “Measured response” means: let the Chinese do something, and then we hit them back. But you never know what the next blow is. You may not survive, so you have to take an active role, saying, “We have to do this, this, this.” For instance, “We turn off all your U.S. dollars in and out.”[It should be] drastic and immediate, and has to finish in a matter of months, not years. If you keep on talking about this “measured response”—not [saying this] against anybody—you’re going to end up losing, seriously. We [are] relying on the U.S. for our safety, so … I’m not criticizing them, but we want to see the U.S. win.

Mr. Jekielek: Elmer Yuan, such a pleasure to have you.

Mr. Yuan: Thank you. Thank you.

This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.

American Thought Leaders is an Epoch Times show available on Facebook and YouTube and The Epoch Times website

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