[CCP Virus] How the World Is Being Manipulated By Covid 19 Propaganda From China—Michael Waller

April 11, 2020 Updated: April 12, 2020

Just how are Americans and the West being manipulated by the Chinese regime and its coronavirus propaganda?

What does this ever-changing propaganda tell us about what’s actually happening in China and its leadership?

How is the Chinese Communist Party feeding off of partisanship in American politics?

And what is the real story behind the fake news about “the US hijacking mask shipments”?

In this episode, we sit down with Dr. J. Michael Waller, a disinformation and propaganda expert who is a Senior Analyst for Strategy at the Center for Security Policy and a founding editorial member of NATO’s Defense Strategic Communications journal.

This is American Thought Leaders 🇺🇸, and I’m Jan Jekielek.

Mr. Jekielek: Dr. Michael Waller. It’s such a pleasure to have you on American thought leaders.

Dr. Michael Waller: It’s good to be on your show.

Mr. Jekielek: You are an expert in Soviet disinformation and propaganda, you studied it for years, and you’ve taken that knowledge and built it further. I’m going to be asking you all sorts of things about what the Chinese Communist Party has been doing. You’ve got this incredible webpage which is something like 80 pages if you were to print it out, showing how the narrative changes. And we’re going to do a deep dive in just a moment.

But first, I want to talk about how the US is trying to get Taiwan observer status. We know that the administration has been more positive to Taiwan than administrations in the past. But I think the timing of this is very interesting. And I’m wondering if you could talk about it from a messaging perspective?

Dr. Waller: Sure. Well, from a messaging perspective, it’s a very handy development that’s really more of a coincidence than a strategic plan because the warming up toward Taiwan was something that Donald Trump was interested in doing from before he became president. You remember right after he was elected, the first foreign chief of state who called to congratulate him was the president of Taiwan. So that was a great move on Taiwan’s part. And you can see Trump’s whole move to revive the American economy and put the American people and nation first and bring jobs back home automatically goes back to changing our relations fundamentally with the People’s Republic of China, which is becoming much more aggressive. So here’s Taiwan, not bothering anybody, being a model for so much of the region, and the way they’re managing to do things under impossible odds.

Last October, the US Senate voted unanimously to approve what’s called the Taipei Act. And that is to help Taiwan to stay independent, to stay free, and to advance and become an accepted member of the nations of the world. Even if it’s not going to be recognized diplomatically, it still should be treated as a real place, kind of like Israel, which was not treated as a real place and still isn’t treated as a real place by some countries. And that was a unanimous vote in the US Senate. Well, then the pandemic comes in early March. On March 4, the US House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi led a unanimous passage of the Taipei Act as well, I think it’s one of the only unanimous passages of anything beyond a ceremonial resolution that we’ve seen. So this was all in the works since way before the pandemic, and it’s just coming to fruition during the pandemic.

Mr. Jekielek: We’re seeing this coming out in the news now, though, so it seems like a critical moment.

Dr. Waller: Yes, it’s very providential and I think it’s also a good opportunity for those in the system who are predisposed toward Taiwan, and everyone who’s disgusted with the People’s Republic of China’s attitude toward everything—from denying everything and letting the pandemic spread worldwide, to now demanding that we thank them after they poisoned us all.

And then Taiwan is here saying, “Hey, listen to us. We were warning about this the whole time. We have our own way to deal with it. We have unique cultural and historic affiliations with the folks on the mainland and we happen to know things that the rest of the world doesn’t. Let us help you.” And then you had the Hong Kong reporter asked the spokesman for the World Health Organization. “Well, what about Taiwan?” And you could see this WHO person (referring to Dr. Bruce Aylward) practically gagging on TV, and pretending not to understand the question and being physically unable to say the name Taiwan. I think that’s been a big education for a lot of people who were otherwise ambivalent or even caving into the CCP on this. So the timing has been perfect. And the Chinese government’s behavior has been just right, as far as I’m concerned, in terms of helping Taiwan.

Mr. Jekielek: It seems like Taiwan is doing all the right moves, including not trusting any of the information coming out of China. It gave them this big head start on everybody else.

Dr. Waller: By virtue of the fact that Taiwan was isolated so much and not allowed to be a member of the World Health Organization, that forced it to go its own way. “So we’re just going to do it our way. We’re not going to listen to anybody else. Nobody listens to us. And then if people need help, fine, we’ll talk to them.” And that’s just what happened.

Mr. Jekielek: Now the Chinese Communist Party is saying “look how well Taiwan is doing. They don’t really need to be part of the WHO…” It’s bizarre. But let me start asking you about the big topic for today, which is Chinese Communist Party messaging, and how it has influenced both the World Health Organization, the US, and also how it’s changed over time. Let’s start by discussing the giant timeline of narratives.

Dr. Waller: The value of propaganda analysis is to be able to see what’s going on with the regime even when they don’t want you to know. When they don’t have an established party line, something that everybody must say and act out on, it means that there’s a lot of trouble within the central regime. They’re disorganized, they’re maybe fearful. They don’t know what they’re doing, and they are not united.

So that’s a great time for us to realize, “Hey, there’s a problem within the central apparatus of the Chinese Communist Party. This shows the problem is much worse than anybody is saying.” And then for better or for worse, one can utilize that as a window of opportunity to get in, because at some point, the party line will be decided and there will be decisive actions taken.

You saw that right after the virus broke out, up until about the 20th or so of January, Xi Jinping was in hiding. He wasn’t in public. He was unseen because he was afraid that he was going to get blamed for all of this. Why was he afraid? Because he insisted on centralizing control of everything in the Chinese Communist Party around himself. So the buck really does stop with him, and no one else. So he and the party apparatus around him had to figure out a way first to distract the responsibility away from the central apparatus in Beijing. And second, to divert attention away from the Chinese Communist Party as a whole. And then third, divert attention away from anything to do with China or even Asia as a problem. And then to blame an outside force, which was mainly the United States.

Mr. Jekielek: It’s fascinating to hear you say that, because looking back, I can barely remember such a moment when Xi Jinping was absent. What I’m aware of now is that they published a book about how successful he’s been at fighting COVID-19 or CCP virus, as we call it. How did we get from hiding to a book?

Dr. Waller: Well, it was quite a leap. And it was a huge apparatus behind him. Just think: the Chinese Communist Party’s central propaganda department is bigger than the whole US State Department. So they can crank out whatever they want for a party line to be enforced internally and abroad. And they’re taking the trouble to put this in multiple languages so that people who don’t read Chinese languages can still follow the party line if they wish to, or at least quote the party line easily if they feel like they have to give both sides [to the story].

So in this case, while Xi Jinping is in hiding for three weeks after the virus gets out of control, in Wuhan, no one sees him in public at all. He’s afraid first that his head’s going to be on the platter because he’s been putting other people’s heads on the platter and throwing a lot of people in prison and destroying them so that he can centralize power and he’s finally realized, “Oh no, this thing’s gonna blow up in my face.” And the party itself was afraid that it was losing its legitimacy. Not that it hadn’t before. But still, there was a social compact between the public and the party where the party will repress you, but it will make sure that you at least live. And in this case, it’s failing even in that.

So, the party’s putting together this propaganda campaign for Xi, to the point of even writing a book, and publishing it in six languages about what a hero he is, and what a decisive leader he is in fighting this Coronavirus. And they were putting this together while the pandemic was still out of control even in China. So this bid was a very expensive, very organized effort to ensure the party’s supremacy in China and ensure Xi Jinping’s supremacy over the party, to make the People’s Republic of China [appears as] a force for good in the world that’s helping everybody, helping humanity; but a protector of humanity—Xi Jinping bought the world, weeks and weeks and weeks of extra time to prepare to fight the pandemic. That’s the propaganda line.

And then he comes out building these big hospitals in 10 days with these drone footage, and all this fancy video showing “Wow, what a miraculous thing. How great that the party is able to build hospitals in 10 days to house everybody.” Well, still they’re repressing doctors who reported this and some of the doctors disappeared. In mid-March, she (referring to Dr. Ai Fen) simply disappeared. And somebody’s messing with her social media accounts. So they’re still repressing doctors who are probably party members, while they’re promoting the glorification of the party worldwide.

Recently countries are saying, “Hey, the [medical] supplies, not given, but sold, by the PRC, really stink. We don’t even want to use them.” And then the regime becomes indignant and says, “Hey, you people should be thanking us.” Now you have the Italians come back saying, well wait a minute, we donated to China before and now they’re selling it back to us and pretending that it’s a gift. So this is backfiring, big time, on the party’s efforts abroad, even though it looks to many degrees like it’s succeeding.

Mr. Jekielek: The narrative has shifted quite a bit from the first place. Could you kind of trace how that’s shifted?

Dr. Waller: Sure. This is all on the timeline on the Center for Security Policy website, but an easy link is Communistpropaganda.com. It will take you straight to that 80-page chronology. We’re updating it a few times a day. I’ve divided it into roughly six parts. And that will change as one looks back on it, and reflects on how the lines change.

But the first line was denial and repression. There was no party line because the Communist Party didn’t know what to do. It wasn’t just the Wuhan party officials who were oppressing it. They were repressing people and information because they were awaiting orders from Xi Jinping’s machine in Beijing, and they weren’t getting any. So this was spinning out of control so all the party could do was repress, repress, repress, and lie. So that’s the first phase until about the 20th of January, Xi Jinping was in hiding all this time, he was afraid to come out in public. He didn’t act decisive at all. He was hidden away.

So then, during that silent period, the party apparat in the center was developing a plan. “What do we do? Well, let’s fight this, admit it.” The People’s Daily, the Communist Party’s daily party line publication, didn’t even mention the virus until January 20th to January 21st. This is when Xi Jinping comes out and makes a big speech. And then, oh, great, there’s finally a party line. Finally, everybody can get in line and say what they’re supposed to say, without fear of being repressed internally and making the leadership look bad.

So this line comes out. It’s still building on the repression and the denial and the disinformation. And this line is more, okay, we’re in the middle of this crisis. But don’t worry, China’s going to handle this and… the rest of the world will be safe. Meanwhile, the World Health Organization is echoing the same line. And if you look at the timeline, there’s about a two day lag between when the Chinese Communist Party issues its line, and the World Health Organization ends up repeating it.

Mr. Jekielek: That’s astounding.

Dr. Waller: At this time also, the CCP itself was saying “Chinese Coronavirus” or “Wuhan Coronavirus” in their own official publications, because there had been no party line yet to say, “Hey, don’t use those names, because it makes China and the party look bad.” So it was only until after that crackdown within the party that the World Health Organization came out and issued instructions to the whole world, “Hey, we’re instructing you not to use geographic names to refer to this virus because it’s prejudicial. So we’re going to give it some name that no one could remember.” And later on, it became COVID-19. But if you look, earlier on even the CCP was calling it “Wuhan Coronavirus.” So the World Health Organization as it’s making the statement “Don’t refer to China.” In the very same webpage, the World Health Organization was referring to Middle East Respiratory Syndrome and these other geographic names that are still okay to use apparently.

Mr. Jekielek: So now we’ve gone from denial to admission, and we’re dealing with it. So what happens next?

Dr. Waller: Well then comes, “it’s not a Wuhan virus. It didn’t come from China, it might have come from somewhere else.” And this was a combination of a tweet from a foreign ministry spokesman, saying that the US Army unleashed it in Wuhan last October during some goodwill event. And then their other party apparatus is quoting from some bizarre Canadian website that’s anti-NATO, but if you look at the person who wrote the article, it’s actually a person in Shanghai bouncing it out of Canada. And so the CCP starts quoting Canadian sources and saying this, and then blaming the Italians for having the virus break out in Italy. So it wasn’t just the United States that was being blamed.

And they said “Well, it’s the US that’s politicizing the virus by attributing it to China. And if you politicize the virus, that means you’re undermining attempts to fight this pandemic.” So then the party line switches to “China is saving the world and the CCP is saving the world, while the United States and Donald Trump politicize it and hinder efforts to fight the pandemic.” So that’s another line that comes out. And then you have a two-prong line there, where the United States is both a partner in this—we all have to be working together to fight the virus—yet at the same time, the United States is really the demon that’s destroying the world’s efforts by politicizing this virus.

Now, this entire time, President Donald Trump is making public statements sympathetic toward the Chinese people, tolerant about the Chinese regime itself, which would include CCP, and even standing by Xi Jinping, not because he’s a pal, maybe saying it the way he calls Kim Jong Un “terrific.” But when Trump calls a bad guy, a “pal” or “terrific,” you know what he’s really thinking is not anywhere near that. But Trump has been completely supportive of China’s efforts and the Chinese government’s efforts to do what it takes to fight this virus. He has not been antagonistic towards the regime at all.

But the Chinese government is becoming extremely antagonistic toward Trump, to the point where, by mid March, it starts engaging in the US political debate, and… it’s become a partisan issue in the United States now. I did a survey of members of Congress criticizing Chinese government disinformation and propaganda, there were a lot of Republicans doing it, but I only found one Democrat. Strangely enough—because you just had this unanimous resolution of support for Taiwan in early March in the House of Representatives. There was only one Democrat who openly was condemning Chinese party propaganda. And that was congressman Seth Moulton from Massachusetts.

He lasted exactly two days before Nancy Pelosi came down on him and said, “You’ve got to stop it. We are also blaming Donald Trump because it’s a campaign here.” So you had this very bizarre thing where President Trump’s domestic opposition, and the CCP, were feeding off each other’s propaganda lines. And you’ll see this in the chronology where some of the CCPs themes end up being repeated by American media outlets and politicians. And then the CCP repeats themes that were coined by American politicians and commentators. So the CCP is feeding off our own internal dissent and throwing it back at us.

Mr. Jekielek: That’s a textbook example of information warfare, how they’re trying to use Americans. There was a Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson who had made those tweets accusing the American military, and then he walked that back recently. You don’t typically see them walking things back. I thought that was very interesting. Do you think there’s any chance that he did this on his own?

Dr. Waller: That’s a good question. But let’s look at the bigger picture. So around late February, early March, the CCP came out and instructed certain very assertive ambassadors around the world to open their own Twitter accounts. And then at the same time, you also had CCP billionaires like Jack Ma also open up his Twitter account in English. Twitter is not allowed inside Mainland China unless it’s party-approved. So, you have these ambassadors, very aggressive ones, especially in South Africa, Brazil, other parts of the world and in the Chinese Foreign Ministry in Beijing, becoming very aggressive on Twitter. But these were party instructions, and they were so specific that they were issued in Xi Jinping’s own handwriting. It wasn’t an email, wasn’t a cable, wasn’t anything like that. So this is proving that this came from the man himself. So they’re all operating with his own authority. And as you know, over there, if you’re a government official, and you misspeak in ways that are damaging to the party, you’re not going to be seen on TV again.

Mr. Jekielek: There are all these safety items, medical products that the Chinese Communist Party has either sold or donated through its proxies, for example, the things Huawei donated to New York State. How is it possible that they would donate things that just simply don’t work?

Dr. Waller: Well, I think it’s a combination of things. First of all, any recipient of aid is going to be gracious. So if you can get a sign of thanks from the President of the United States or the governor of New York or anybody else, it’s simply a gracious gesture to say thank you for means of assistance when you’re in trouble. That’s just normal.

But the real value in it is that the public can see “Oh, China is rescuing us where Donald Trump cannot.” This is where the CCP is able to seize on divisions within the United States political system or the country at large, and take advantage of it. In fact, Secretary of State Pompeo explained this in great detail in a February 8th speech to the National Governors Association. Go back and look at that speech. It’s extraordinary.

The CCP has mapped out every politician in the country down to the governors and senior elected state legislators. So it’s not just national-level politicians. And they’ve mapped out who’s soft on the CCP or even likes them, who’s moderator ambivalence and who’s hostile to them. And they’ve developed ways to manipulate all of us, whether you hate the CCP—if they can make you say things that sound racist, that benefits the CCP. Whereas if you just want to make money and bring jobs into your state, fine, then let’s cut a deal and don’t ever say the name Taiwan or don’t ever be critical of Xi Jinping. And we’ll make sure that our party people invest in businesses in your state. So they find a way to do this with all of us. That’s why it’s important as Secretary Pompeo said, and as the Justice Department has said, everyone has to be careful about what they say and do—act in your own interest and in the interest of your constituents, but make sure that it doesn’t undermine the security of the country or benefit the Chinese regime.

Mr. Jekielek: You recently commented on a Guardian piece that talked about how the US had seized medical supplies. If you could talk about this a little bit, I find the whole thing incredible.

Dr. Waller: This was a story that started circulating in the last days of March, first couple days of April, across Europe. And this is right when the different countries of the world and their governments are scouring the whole world for masks and gowns, emergency medical supplies, and ventilators. So, normally you’re going to have them outbidding each other and trying to take care of their own people. That’s all understandable. But there was a disinformation theme that emerged that doesn’t have CCP fingerprints on it. It has another place’s fingerprints on it. And this was that United States agents were on the ground in Shanghai and other places with colossal amounts of cash to pay three or four times the price for this medical gear that was supposed to go to Italy, France, Germany, Canada and other countries, and the United States government was literally hijacking or pirating these purchases made by these other countries. So this spread really fast from French regional politicians to a radio station in Luxembourg, and then the Russian RT channel picked it up and immediately sent it out in a whole bunch of languages all around the world. And then the old French communist newspaper, Libération, which still hates the United States like it always did, but it’s a major major newspaper in France with a big following. They pick it up and then German politicians start picking it up, including the mayor of the German capital Berlin, who then echoes that saying, “Yeah, the United States intercepted aircraft full of planes in Thailand with Chinese made masks that had been ordered for Germany. And this is not the way an ally of Germany should be behaving.” This is completely objectionable to the point where even the Prime Minister of Canada was accusing the United States of pirating masks and other gear bound for Canada.

It turns out the whole thing was a fabrication. So on this particular one, I was working with some people in Germany and I found that Twitter address of the French politician and I called him out on it on Twitter. He then tweeted separately saying, “Stop, this is disinformation, I never said this.” Well, of course, he did say it. He just got caught saying it. Well, then a few days ago, the mayor of Berlin when he was approached, a German paper asked him and he said, “Oh, yeah, I made a mistake. It was wrong. It was based on false information.” And then the Canadian government finally said that it was a mistake. And DHL, the delivery company, sent out a Tweet saying, “Hey, we never had any problem. Nothing was diverted—this stuff made it to Canada. It’s sitting in Canadian customs until the customs fees are paid.” So, the crisis is over. But this went on for days. But some German activists who were pro-Western and just pro-truth, and German journalists at Bild newspaper, which is a big mass-circulation daily paper in Germany, and our US Ambassador there, Rick Grinnell, they all came out just to prove how this was, in fact, disinformation that it turns out, was being circulated by the Russian government. So here you have Putin’s propaganda machine, building on CCP propaganda and disinformation, to get the western democracies to fight among themselves and suspect one another about so-called aid.

Mr. Jekielek: This is textbook Russian chaos information ops.

Dr. Waller: The German investigative report in Bild was super. They found that this disinformation was surfacing in Greece. It was surfacing in Italy. The Greeks were accusing the Italians or vice versa, of withholding aid supplies. It was to get all of the NATO countries fighting against one another, and suspecting one another, but this was not a CCP campaign. That’s the really interesting part. So you have now this mess that the Communist Party propaganda department has orchestrated, now being picked up by the Kremlin, for its own purposes to divide the NATO Alliance and the G7 and the EU and transatlantic relationships. It has become a global mess. All started by Xi Jinping.

Mr. Jekielek: Incredible. Narratives and messaging are so paramount. What is it that the US government and those of free countries should be doing in the face of this?

Dr. Waller: We’re terrible. Look at 9/11 almost 20 years ago. We still don’t have a good information strategy concerning Jihadist Islamic propaganda. We’ve really had nothing now since 1999, when the US Information Agency was abolished. That was a whole Cold War era bureaucracy set up in the 1950s to fight communist propaganda, and then it was abolished because we didn’t need it anymore, supposedly, and never directed it against the CCP. Because really the whole political establishment in Washington was dependent on good relations with the CCP and never offending the CCP, because then that would stop exchanges. That would stop medical experimentation going on in Harvard and other places where, where so much… bio, nanotechnology was being developed in cooperation with China.

But lo and behold, as the pandemic is breaking, of course, the FBI arrested Harvard professor Charles Lieber for having a secret laboratory in Wuhan. He was paid millions of dollars for it while he was getting Pentagon money to do this nanotechnology research. At the same time you had a PLA spy at Boston University and Beth Israel Hospital, also being arrested. And then there’s this other Chinese national, going from Detroit, with vials of virus samples going back to mainland China. All going back to Wuhan. Something really nasty has been happening here for decades and the political and academic and business establishment have never wanted to offend Beijing. So they’ve always gone along. That’s all changing.

Mr. Jekielek: It is changing. And I’m seeing conflicting information. Josh Rogan, Washington Post columnist, has a piece talking about how it seems like the Washington establishment is realizing what the Chinese Communist Party is doing. On the other hand, here you’re saying that there’s political division. How is this going to play out?

Dr. Waller: It’s still an open question. It just depends on a bunch of variables. The first thing being that democratic societies have to be united right now. There’s a presidential campaign going on here. We all know it. But we still have to be above that. There are plenty of other issues to fight about, and argue with, and like or dislike another candidate. Things should be like they were after 9/11 where people weren’t blaming President Bush for 9/11. Or like Pearl Harbor, the republicans didn’t blame President Roosevelt for the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. So rather than blaming one another for the virus and the handling of it, we should all be united in blaming the CCP because it was the Chinese Communist Party that covered up the virus it was the Chinese Communist Party that waited weeks and weeks and weeks before saying anything worthwhile about the virus or even officially admitting that there was a virus. And it was they who inflicted it on the world. So let’s all get together and all agree the same way every single member of the House and Senate agreed to the Taipei Act to support Taiwan, just a few weeks ago—Let’s all get together and blame the CCP for this virus and then we can fight amongst ourselves on how best to handle it domestically. That’s the first point: put the blame where it’s due. And that’s the CCP.

Mr. Jekielek: What do you make of the Asia Society who sponsored a letter with some very prominent folks that says this is the time for cooperation even if we disagree ideologically?

Dr. Waller: Sadly, you don’t need to read what the Asia Society says to know what they’re about to say. They have a terrible track record. If you look at their chronology that we put together at the Center for Security Policy, the Asia society made that statement well after the CCP created that as the party line. The Asia Society is not going to fight the party line. I don’t remember when it has. These are all establishment politicians, establishment businesses, establishment academics, whose livelihoods depend on doing business with the CCP. So of course, they’re going to say, “let’s all just work together.”

Now there’s something to be said for cooperative relations with everybody, regardless of ideologies or wherever, that’s a given, no one’s arguing against that. But to say, let’s not blame anybody for it. Let’s ignore how it originated. Let’s ignore all these other aggressive actions that the CCP has taken while the pandemic was spreading—that’s what the Asia Society seems to be urging people to do with these so-called distinguished eminent figures. So… I’d be super suspicious of them. And really, I think this is part of the swamp and this is part of the elite establishment. It’s bipartisan in this country. But the American public’s fed up with this. These are the kind of people who sold us down the road, dismantled our factories, and little literally shipped them to China, destroying thousands and tens of thousands of union jobs and manufacturing jobs, and stealing our patents and stealing our intellectual property, shifting it all over to the mainland in China, and then selling it back to us, sucking more capital out of our country. These are the people who did it. If there’s anybody to be held responsible for anything, it’s the Henry Kissingers and the Asia Societies of the world, who are the ones who architected this CCP collusion strategy. That’s a bipartisan strategy that’s gone on for decades.

Mr. Jekielek: We’re going to finish up in a moment. I don’t know. Any final thoughts before we do?

Dr. Waller: Well, there’s a whole lot here. The party line is constantly changing. I think the administration seems to be treating this as a great power competition, not because of the virus—this is something that the administration had put together two years ago in order to deal with China overall. But this can’t be viewed in isolation. If you’re looking at the aggressive espionage in our universities with the Confucius Institutes that had to be forced out. When you have Chinese so-called students and researchers who are working for the CCP coming in, not helping us develop research but stealing it and taking any back, or the big hacking attack, which took place while the pandemic was unfolding. It was that the Chinese government was sponsoring a massive hacking attack on American financial, educational, defense, government, health, and other networks for a couple of weeks while this was going on, as well as aggressive information operations campaigns on Twitter and Facebook, that pale in comparison to what the Russians were supposedly doing in 2016 against Trump.

So all of these things were already happening before the pandemic took place. So we have to look at what the regime is doing and now that it’s at its weak point, what’s to the best benefit of freedom in our country, prosperity in our country, but also the historic turning point for China itself. This is the historic turning point right now, when the party’s legitimacy is being questioned, the party leadership is fighting amongst itself. And the [Chinese] public is realizing hey, this party is disserving all of us. It’s killing us off, and some reports say the CCP is even burning people alive in those crematoria in Wuhan. But to this day, they’re still repressing reporters and journalists in China who are not reporting the party line. So this is the time for the freedom-loving people in the world to be united, the way they were with the Russian people and others after Chernobyl in the late 1980s. To say, hey, this communist party system is really sick. Let’s try to help the country and help humanity get rid of this and put it all behind us for a better future for all of us before something even worse happens.

Mr. Jekielek: Dr. Michael Waller such a pleasure to speak with you.

Dr. Waller: Good to be with you, Jan.

This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity. 
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