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Michael Senger: The Pandemic Power Grab and the Rise of a Global Biosecurity Regime

“With monkeypox, we’re really seeing this entire sort of international biosecurity state, with the World Health Organization at its head, able to declare an emergency any time they want, with an entire planned out bureaucracy.”

I sit down with Michael Senger, an anti-lockdown activist and author of “Snake Oil: How Xi Jinping Shut Down the World.” We discuss the draft amendments to the International Health Regulations, the pandemic treaty, and what these would mean for national sovereignty and the future of global public health.

“When you look at every single policy that was implemented in response to COVID-19, you find China’s paw prints on every single policy, because it all comes back to the central lie—that the lockdown of Wuhan, the response of the Chinese Communist Party in Wuhan, was so super effective that it eliminated the virus from all of China, this ridiculous narrative.”


Jan Jekielek: Michael Senger, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.

Michael Senger: Thank you so much, Jan. Pleasure to be here.

Mr. Jekielek: Michael, you’ve been writing about this pandemic and especially its origins. Your book, Snake Oil: How Xi Jinping Shut Down the World, was on my radar early on. Actually, it’s a historical work at this point. Before we go there, I want to talk about your observations about what’s happening as we speak at the World Health Assembly and this so-called global pandemic treaty. Let me read something you wrote in a recent piece, “Take heart, the pandemic treaty won’t annul your national sovereignty, that would be impossible because you haven’t had any national sovereignty since March, of 2020.” I’m not sure everyone would agree with you on this point. So why don’t you tell me what’s going on here?

Mr. Senger: Right now, the World Health Organization in Geneva, Switzerland is debating amendments to the International Health Regulations. It expands the WHO’s power, allocates them more resources, more funding, essentially more of what they’ve been doing already with all this testing and surveillance and all this big data. Technically, these health regulations are not binding on member nations. They all can be overruled by the national sovereignty of any given country.

However, there is serious concern about national sovereignty here. When countries sign up for this treaty and these amendments to the International Health Regulations, they are consenting and essentially implementing and rubber stamping them for their own national territory, and allowing very little oversight of their own. So, even though these amendments and this treaty is not technically binding, it raises serious concerns about national sovereignty for countries all over the world, because countries do follow this.

Essentially, this is a ratification of everything that we saw with COVID-19. Does anybody think that what the World Health Organization did during COVID-19 was a smashing success? I don’t think so. What role did the World Health Organization play? First, they started out, as is widely known, by helping China cover up the virus. Next, they rubber stamped lockdowns into policy based on very little knowledge. A lockdown is not something that was in any country’s pandemic plan.

It actually has had no precedent in the Western world since the middle ages at the very latest. Based solely on what the Chinese Communist Party said was successful in Wuhan, this ridiculous narrative was created that the super-lockdown in Wuhan had eliminated the virus from all of China. Just a few weeks after that, the World Health Organization’s China representative gives a press conference and tells the entire world that you have to copy China’s response to COVID-19.

Based solely on that, he tells the entire world, regardless of what their demographics are, their economics are, or even the number of their COVID-19 cases, he tells them they all have to do this. Based on that, one by one, like dominoes, the entire world starts to shut down. That really accounts for everything we saw over the past two years from the lockdowns, from the mask mandates, from the mass testing and vaccine passes, from the PCR testing guidance from the World Health Organization, and from this entire fear campaign.

They issued this guidance that was also unprecedented, the plans to start mass testing for COVID-19 with PCR tests. It turns out that the cycle thresholds that were issued along with that guidance—which also came from China by the way, the New York Times later confirmed—there was an 85 to 90% false positive rate. What has taken place over the last two years is an unspeakable crime

Now, you have all these nations going to Geneva, Switzerland where the World Health Organization is, asking for more power to do the same thing, and not just the same thing, but more of it. All these countries are saying, “Okay, that’s great. Everything we experienced was just fine and dandy, let’s do more of it.” That is the real significance here.

Mr. Jekielek: We just had Dr. David Bell on the show and he explained the distinction between the International Health Regulations that are being looked at as we speak, and also this pandemic treaty that will be voted on the following year. Please clarify this, because it almost sounded like the two are being kind of conflated into one.

Mr. Senger: The amendments to the International Health Regulations are more immediate. The pandemic treaty, which is also being debated and being talked about, will be something that’s passed in the future. The treaty is something that has not been drafted yet in any serious way, but will grant the organization a host of new powers if nations decide to go down that path.

Mr. Jekielek: How do these amendments actually validate these lockdowns?

Mr. Senger: The lockdown strategy was not part of any country’s pandemic plan. It had no history prior to the lockdown of Wuhan, China. However, in February of 2020, after the Chinese Communist Party announced that their lockdown of Wuhan was smashing success, the World Health Organization rubber stamped that into policy, and then the entire world followed that endorsement of the lockdown by the World Health Organization. It becomes part of their own policy. This is something that they’re actually working on, this is not even up for vote. It’s not part of the amendments to the health regulations or the pandemic treaty, but they have simply adopted lockdown as policy.

Mr. Jekielek: Supposedly, these are a legitimate way of responding to a pandemic, when really all the evidence shows otherwise.

Mr. Senger: That’s exactly right. They are adding legitimacy to these policies by signing on to the treaty. When you look at every single policy that was implemented in response to COVID-19, you find China’s paw prints on every single policy, because it all comes back to this central lie that the response of the Chinese Communist Party in Wuhan was so super-effective that it eliminated the virus from all of China. This is a ridiculous narrative.

Every single one of these policies comes back to what the Chinese Communist Party said they did in Wuhan. The mass testing using those cycle thresholds, lockdowns, mask mandates, and obviously vaccine passes have the China’s paw prints all over each one of them.  It turns out that very single one of those policies was just laundered into policy, based on the fact that our officials and our elites were rubber stamping this lie that the Chinese Communist Party has succeeded in eliminating this virus.

Even if that wasn’t obvious enough, just look at this graph, which I put in the cover of my book. This is supposedly the COVID deaths in China until Xi Jinping gives the order, and then suddenly there’s flat line. They didn’t even do a good job forging that graph, but that has been the basis for the world’s response to COVID-19. Even more vividly, we have seen in the last year that China is suddenly back in lockdown again. So, everything that we’ve been told by this biosecurity community over the last two years that copied all these China policies has been a lie due to what just happened to China. Now all of a sudden, they’re back in lockdown again. They never actually eliminated the virus to begin with.

It was a really ridiculous data fraud that somehow got legitimized by the international influence that the Chinese Communist Party has developed over several decades with elite media outlets, with universities, with politicians, and with think tanks. You can see all of it. The closer you get to the centers of power regarding the response to COVID-19, the more likely people are to repeat this lie that the Chinese Communist Party actually did eliminate this virus. It is eerie to behold, because everybody else can tell it’s obviously data fraud. But apparently, the elites in charge of the response cannot tell the difference. This is the cause of everything that has happened.

Mr. Jekielek: What do you think really happened with the COVID numbers in China?

Mr. Senger: To me, what they did in Wuhan is just obviously data fraud. On January 23rd, Xi Jinping announces this lockdown of Wuhan. They start ramping up mass testing using the PCR testing and the cycle thresholds that they then to told the rest of the world to use. You see those deaths and cases going up and up and up in January and February of 2020 and then it flat lines. And it flat lines simply because Xi Jinping and the higher-ups in the Chinese Communist Party said, “No more deaths, no more cases. It’s over, mission accomplished.” This is very typical for the Chinese Communist Party. The Chinese Communist Party lies about everything. They lie about their economic growth, and they lie about it every couple of years. Then, they come back and make another promise, “We will be carbon-zero within a decade or two.”

Of course, they take no action to actually approach that goal, and to actually pursue that goal of becoming carbon-zero. But over several decades, they’ve developed an international network that accepts these lies that emerge out of their propaganda machine as reality. Leaders take this and say, “The Chinese Communist Party promised to be carbon-zero, now we have to be carbon-zero too, we have to cut emissions.” Of course, for the CCP, that means nothing to them.

They take no action toward that goal and they’re still producing the most coal of any country in the world, but the rest of the world actually does cut some of their emissions. So, we see this pattern where Western elites are treating the lies coming out of the Chinese Communist Party as reality. With COVID-19, that gets kicked into overdrive. Now, you have this very obvious, ridiculous lie that with this two month super-lockdown in Wuhan when they’re welding people into their dwellings, they were able to eliminate this virus from all of China, but nowhere else outside of China was it eliminated.

Think about how utterly absurd that is. Apparently this virus understands national borders very well. Look at all the countries close to China. China has a very porous border with billions of people. With all the countries close by, their cases are at all-time highs, but China is still insisting that they had zero deaths the entire time. It’s just utterly absurd. The real story here is straight out of ancient Rome. The tyrant, Xi Jinping, gave the order to launder his lockdown into policy and suspend everybody’s rights around the world. And that’s exactly what his cronies did.

Mr. Jekielek: One of the things you noted is that in the International Health Regulations themselves, there is a focus on information management. Please tell me about that.

Mr. Senger: That is the most concerning aspect of these health regulations. The health regulations repeat all the things that the World Health Organization is doing. They want more testing, more tracing, more information gathering, and more non-pharmaceutical interventions. There’s all that, but that isn’t technically binding on member nations. They just have to not  approve those health regulations, but actually implement them on their own if they choose to.

Unfortunately, with many liberal nations around the world, they simply rubber stamp those policies from the World Health Organization. So, in that sense, it is very concerning for national sovereignty. However, in one area, national sovereignty doesn’t matter at all, and that is this war on misinformation, this clamp-down on misinformation. Because in that particular area, the World Health Organization is not working through nations, and nations don’t have to approve this. They are working directly with unaccountable private organizations and international companies such as Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube, and advising them on who and what to censor.

It doesn’t matter what country you’re in. You can be in a country that is completely opposed to the World Health Organization, where you’ve done everything in your power to convince all of your democratically elected officials to not give the WHO any power. That doesn’t matter, because World Health Organization is getting funding. They are using that funding to work with YouTube, Facebook and Twitter to censor your voice and censor those who you agree with and want to hear from. That will have an effect on how every country in the world responds to any pandemic, and gets information about any virus, regardless of whether they vote to give the World Health Organization any power.

Mr. Jekielek: How is this different from what’s been happening already with these updates to the International Health Regulations?

Mr. Senger: It’s just more of it. That’s what it comes down to. All the extraordinarily harmful activity that we’ve seen through World Health Organization, telling countries around the world what to engage in over the last two years—they just want to do more of it. You see leaders signing on to these WHO health amendments, and essentially pledging allegiance to this horrible biosecurity system that we’ve seen over the last two years, that has caused so much harm all over the world.

These lockdowns have led to the largest man made famine that we have seen since the Great Leap Forward. They have deprived children all over the world of years of primary education, Children were stuffed in masks for hours and hours a day, something I can’t even imagine. It sounded absolutely awful just to attend school.

They destroyed economies all over the world. In 2020, every single country in the G20, the largest 20 economies in the world, every single country had negative GDP growth except for China. China made a lot of money. It transferred $3 trillion in wealth from the world’s poorest people to the very richest. A small handful of billionaires got rich off of this response, mostly testing and vaccines. Predominantly, those were Chinese billionaires, Chinese Communist Party members.

What happened here is an absolute crime, an absolute heist. The World Health Organization is almost being used as a front for the Chinese Communist Party. Leaders around the world are going these meetings and the World Health Organization is telling them, “Oh yes, let’s do all that again, let’s have more of that.” And the leaders are responding, “Yes, that’s fine.” That is the power of the false reality that has been spun by the Chinese Communist Party and the World Health Organization. The countries are all signing up and pledging allegiance to that false reality. And somehow, this is all okay.

Mr. Jekielek: Apparently, there was a very coordinated information campaign about the severity of the virus and the necessity of lockdown policies. Does this validate the idea that there was something nefarious going on?

Mr. Senger: It really does. What you heard was this convergence of narrative. In early 2020, all the officials in charge got very scared, because of what they saw coming out of Wuhan. A lot of the scientific community became really panicked, because they thought this might have come out of their lab. You know that Wuhan has an institute of virology. The lab in Wuhan was an international center.

Of course, it was in China, partially sponsored by the Chinese government, but also by scientists around the world and by the United States. They started hearing stories of this super virus from the Chinese Communist Party, that it had this huge, massive death rate, combined with the fact that it spreads super fast. Suddenly, you start seeing all these videos coming out of Wuhan of people falling to their deaths, piles of bodies in the streets, and people having seizures. This is all happening right around the time that the dictator of China shuts down Wuhan, the city with the lab, which is scary in it and of itself.

They all get really panicked and freaked out that this might be a super virus that leaked out of their lab. Instead of telling the public about this, they keep it private amongst themselves and they inform the intelligence authorities. The intelligence authorities, being the hawks that they are, react in extraordinarily dramatic fashion and they get panicked as well. Meanwhile, this policy of lockdown through the World Health Organization and through the Chinese Communist Party’s clandestine network of influence, this policy of lockdown is being laundered and propagated into policy.

There are reports around that time, and one in the stock tip, all the way back in January 30th, saying that there is already a plan in place for the World Health Organization to start copying China’s response to the virus in countries all over the world. The tip explicitly states that they want to start doing that in Italy, by shutting down cities in Italy.

We see that is exactly what happened. Actually, on the same day that the World Health Organization tells the entire world, “What China has shown the world, you have to do this,” 10 cities in the Lombardy region of Italy are shut down, just like the stock tip said—cities in Italy will start shutting down. Shortly thereafter, PCR testing guidance is issued all over Italy and the entire country of Italy goes into lockdown. Seeing that Italy had gone into lockdown, the rest of the world considers this legitimate policy.

This is no longer a dictatorial policy. Think if you’re the mayor of Florence or you’re the mayor of New York, and you just tell people, “Okay I’m just going to stop the economy and suspend everybody’s rights. And maybe sometimes I’ll follow the rules, maybe I won’t, because the dictator of China did it and that’s where I got the idea from.” No, everybody will tell you, “That’s nuts, of course we’re not going to follow that, and that’s downright treasonous.”

But now, it has been rubber stamped by the World Health Organization, and gets cosmopolitan-veneered by the World Health Organization. Now, they see Italy do it, which is part of the free world, even though Italy historically has a real corruption problem. That gives it a veneer of a legitimate policy. So, all of a sudden like dominoes, states and countries all over the world start adopting this lockdown policy. So you have this convergence of narrative, where you have the national security community freaked out that this might have been a leak out of the Wuhan lab.

Meanwhile, the Chinese Communist Party, very explicitly, with their own media outlets, as well as bots that had around that same time been traced back to the Chinese Communist Party, are also urging the rest of the world to adopt their policy and follow the guidance of the World Health Organization. Essentially, all the major power brokers, and all the major players all across the world are joining forces to propagate this policy and get countries to go into lockdown in March of 2020.

Mr. Jekielek: Just to remind our viewers, this is policy that has never been implemented before in modern times and is against normal pandemic guidance.

Mr. Senger: Correct. It goes against normal pandemic guidance, has never been done before in the history of the Western world, except during the middle ages at the very latest. But suddenly the entire world is in lockdown. Not only have those who implemented these policies given no regard to what citizens knew about the virus, there are no votes on this policy. Apparently, they gave no regard to what those policies do to the poor. Nobody will ever forget those horrifying images of the mass exodus in countries like India and South Africa, where workers were just tossed out onto the streets. These are workers who work extremely hard for extraordinarily low pay and suddenly, the workers are just suspended. A lot of times they will live thousands and thousands of miles from home.

It would be a mass of workers, with no idea where to go, just walking on foot thousands of miles in tight packs, and not really protected from getting a super virus. It makes absolutely no sense. That convinced me there was something seriously off about all this. And that’s what convinced me at the very beginning that someone was manipulating these events. They showed no regard for Judeo-Christian values.

You can’t just sentence people to die, in some cases, for the crime of being poor. They showed no regard for the principles in the West of the Enlightenment and human rights. That meant nothing to whoever implemented these policies. It was so psychologically shocking to see sophisticated cosmopolitan elites all over the world in every single country simultaneously treat this as normal, and seeding the idea that there is this super virus.

Once you’ve gotten behind that policy, and once you’ve supported something so horrific, the idea now emerging that there really wasn’t a super virus is totally unacceptable. This virus was later confirmed to have an infection fatality rate under 0.2 per cent. We now know that. The UK government has said that John Ioannidis, the most cited physician in the world, says the infection fatality rate is 0.15 per cent. So, there never was a super virus to begin with.

But once people have destroyed so many millions of lives, especially those people with influence, people who worked hard to get where they are or have won an election, they come to realize, “Wait, I’ve destroyed millions of lives for nothing? That can’t be right.” They have gotten behind a policy that seeds this idea there must be a super virus that necessitates suspending one right after another to supposedly eliminate it, as China said they did.

Mr. Jekielek: So let me see if I understand your thesis correctly here. The CCP is looking to impact the world in a very negative way. It seeds its false information into the World Health Organization, which effectively does its bidding. There is a lot of information out there showing that the CCP was coordinating with the WHO at the beginning of the pandemic around the messaging. Then, there is widespread panic that this might be a super virus. Now, because that messaging is in place, there is no going back and they have to keep doubling down. Is that your thesis?

Mr. Senger: That’s correct. That’s a good summary. What we saw was a multilateral influence campaign. You had these bot campaigns at the very interpersonal level. It started with those horrifying videos out of Wuhan, which went viral all over the media outlets, all which are blocked in China, over there you can’t get on Facebook, YouTube, or Twitter. Facebook is usually such a happy, friendly place. Suddenly in early 2020, you’re seeing all these videos of people falling dead that are absolutely horrifying. That shaped people’s initial impression of this virus. Shortly after that, you had these huge astroturf campaigns. It’s actually how I got my start on Twitter. The clue came in this New York Times article that came out in July of 2020, talking about how a big national security non-profit had identified hundreds of thousands of these bots.

When you go in and click on them look at these bots, they’re all saying in the same words, in every single language and every single dialect in the world saying, “Oh, we’re just sitting here washing our hands and sharing the same video. China is doing this super responsibly, if only we had a lockdown like China. Meanwhile, we’re just sitting here washing our hands.” So this is a very clear bot astroturf campaign, this massive social media campaign hitting people at the very individual level that is very personal.

What you see right in front of your face and on your phone is that you should be terrified, and you should adopt this lockdown. On the other hand, meanwhile, you have an influence operation at the very top where this policy is being laundered through the World Health Organization, who are stamping this unprecedented totalitarian policy to be adopted by democratic countries all over the world, despite the fact that it suspends everyone’s rights, and suspends all human rights.

Then, you have the Chinese Communist Party’s influence within other national elite institutions. We have some evidence of that as well, you can see the lobbyists. Fortunately, there has been a resistance movement in Germany that’s been sophisticated enough to dig this up. But secretly, you had lobbyists from universities within China getting the German government to adopt these policies, you see it line by line, at every single step.

They have quarantine facilities and mass PCR testing. And literally they suggest— and this comes from the academics who act as liaisons between these universities in China to the German government, who have absolutely no scientific background, no background in epidemiology—they suggest, line by line, every single aspect of the totalitarian response including the propaganda slogan, Together, Apart. The line, Together, Apart, actually became an international propaganda slogan all over the world. So that is the influence that the Chinese Communist Party has built up within elite institutions all over the world; with universities, with think tanks, with media outlets, and among politicians.

Suddenly, you now get this huge convergence of narrative all over the world where national security officials and scientists are terrified, because they don’t know if it’s a super virus that leaked out of the lab. The World Health Organization is telling people to lockdown. Universities and media outlets are going along with it, because they have this relationship with China that they don’t want to endanger, so they don’t want to question the narrative coming out of China. And then you have this social media fear propaganda.

So it’s no accident that even though this policy of lockdown had no precedent and wasn’t part of any pandemic plan, suddenly you get this huge buy-in across the entire population, because of all this deliberately induced mass hysteria to get people to buy into that policy. A big part of what we’re doing as activists is unraveling all that, and showing all the manipulation that went into it. And also to tell people that it’s okay, even if you were terrified into supporting those policies in March of 2020. There was military-grade propaganda getting you to buy into that.

Mr. Jekielek: I’m reminded of an interview I did with Dr. Robert Epstein, where we talk about this feature of human psychology, that if you dupe somebody and even you show them the evidence that you were able to dupe them or manipulate them, they’re very unlikely to accept it. My question is, is an information campaign like this enough?

Mr. Senger: Yes. It’s just as Mark Twain said, “It’s much easier to fool someone, than it is to convince them that they’ve been fooled.” We saw that in a big way during COVID-19, and especially because of that initial fear campaign and its impact that was so enormous. Once people buy into that initial lockdown narrative that you need to suspend everyone’s rights, suspend the entire economy, throw small business owners under the bus, throw children under the bus in some of their brightest years, and especially throw the poor under the bus, many of whom unfortunately were the first to starve—once you’ve supported something like that, it’s just very, very difficult to realize that you supported all of that for nothing. People’s egos become attached to it. They become attached to the idea that there is a super virus out there. That accounts for so much of what we saw over the last two years.

This is all deeply rooted in the history of the Chinese Communist Party, going all the way back to how they won the Chinese Civil War. The Chinese Communist Party was very, very tiny during the Chinese Civil War. It was only 0.01 per cent of the population. They convinced millions and millions of people to fight on their behalf, promising that they would share everything once they won the war. Of course the exact opposite happened, it’s an absolutely grisly history.

Of course, Mao Zedong is one of the most ruthless and manipulative tyrants in all of human history. Within three years of the CCP winning the war, nearly 80 per cent of China’s population was forced to participate in mass accusation meetings and public executions. It is just absolutely horrifying. And after that, you get the Great Leap Forward, the largest man made famine in human history.

During the Great Leap Forward, all of China’s population was moved to communes, with very strict production quotas, but produced very little to show for it. It was extraordinarily inefficient, and that led to a rapid decline in food production. But China experts out around the world at the time who were towing the party line, and this is what you would hear if you were a contemporary at the time, insisted there was no famine going on.

During the largest man made famine in human history, so-called China experts around the world were insisting there was no famine. And that was the party line within China at the time. Even if there was hunger, it was just a result of bad weather. If you insinuated that communism, forcing everyone onto the communes, and Mao Zedong’s policies were the actual cause of the famine, if you said that within China at that time, you would be censored, excommunicated and re-educated. It was absolutely horrifying, but that’s the false reality that Mao Zedong either deliberately or just stupidly created.

And now you can see how the Chinese Communist Party in a lot of ways, deliberately exported a false reality to elites all over the world with COVID-19. Mao Zedong rejected evidence right before his eyes that his policies were leading to an absolute horrible famine, he didn’t want to accept that. So, his sycophants who were surrounding him would not suggest or insinuate that his policies were leading to this famine.

You see that with Western elites now, especially ones who have been closely involved in the pandemic response, and who have close relationships with China, like Michael Bloomberg, Bill Gates, and other powerful elites around the world. They reject the evidence in front of their own eyes that lockdowns are the cause of all these problems.

Media outlets all around the world are kissing up to them by saying, “Oh, it wasn’t lockdowns that caused all these school closures,” even though we did it deliberately. We announced very explicitly there will be school closures. “Oh, it’s the pandemic, the pandemic shut down schools,” even though they explicitly gave the orders to shut down schools. “It was the pandemic, it was inevitable, and we had no choice but to do that.”

They say the same thing about famine. They don’t deny that it happened, but it was the pandemic that did that, it was not lockdowns. Even though we deliberately threw everyone out of work, it was just the pandemic. It’s a way to relieve people of responsibility, especially those very egotistical leaders that don’t want to accept any contrary information,and don’t want to acknowledge the role they played in this.

Mr. Jekielek: Michael, I’m going to read a long quote from one of your articles in Tablet, which really struck me. Here’s what you say, “For Xi Jinping, lockdown was never about a virus, it was about sending a message: stripped of all disguise, the illusion of virtue, and competence, the commitment to human rights among the Western political class is nothing more than conformity with easily subvertible norms and institutions passed down by prior generations. As lockdown policies grind on into their 18th month it’s increasingly difficult to disagree with him.”

Mr. Senger: A lot of people love that line, because it really sums up everything that we saw in the last two years during COVID-19. We elect leaders to office and we support these elites believing that they are the guardians of enlightened principles, and believe that they understand them and they understand how our institutions, principles, and basic rights work. We expect them to act as guardians for these principles and not violate them.

Then the Chinese Communist Party under an absolute dictator, Xi Jinping, comes along, and kicks China’s influence network into absolute overdrive with this operation. He shows that just by sharing some bad information, he could essentially get Western leaders to abandon these enlightened principles and human rights altogether. We think of our leaders as guardians of these principles, but it turns out they’re really not that special.

I was not aware of this before COVID-19, but the Chinese Communist Party over the last two years really proved that they got these leaders to adopt, support, and then censor anyone against these very, very liberal, totalitarian, ineffective, unprecedented, and completely dumb policies. Every single one of these policies is not only unprecedented, but it appears they are specifically targeted to undermine principles of the Enlightenment or of humanity.

All these principles are ones that our forebears fought long and hard to secure for us. This is our inheritance as part of the free world, one we should absolutely never take for granted. But lockdowns undermine all that very quickly; the right to free movement, and the right to earn a living.

Mask and vaccine mandates obviously undermine the right to bodily autonomy. Worst of all, throughout all of COVID-19, you get this censorship on the flimsiest of pretexts. All these policies are very pretextual. They don’t actually do anything to prevent a super virus. All of them have been very widely shown to be completely ineffective in slowing the spread of a respiratory virus like COVID-19, but they all create the illusion that there is a super virus out there.

When you walk down the street, and you see people wearing masks everywhere, it maintains the illusion that there is a super virus and you can justify this perpetual state of emergency. Even to this day, many countries are still in the COVID-19 state of emergency. They will not go back on that. It allows them to violate any right, and do whatever they want.

It is a complete undermining of constitutional democracy and the principles of the Enlightenment. It’s all based on what was essentially a false flag of this super virus coming out of Wuhan. In that sense, the Chinese Communist Party really laid bare that our leaders are not that special, and not that different from the leaders of the Chinese Communist Party, frankly.

They are not necessarily guardians of our rights. Once their egos buy into this policy of lockdown, this idea of a super virus, there is no end to the illiberalism that they will support. In many ways, COVID-19 was the Chinese Communist Party’s largest recruiting event. Because once elites buy into that narrative, that there is a super virus that justifies suspending any right and supporting all these previously unthinkable and illiberal emergency measures, for all intents and purposes, they have become tyrants.

They have become part of the Chinese Communist Party when they repeat that lie—that this is all effective in China and it’s how China eliminated the virus. That is what the Chinese Communist Party requires of its members, tow the party line. When you see elites all over the world towing that party line, for all intents and purposes, they become CCP members.

Mr. Jekielek: That’s a fascinating way to put it, Michael. Why is this now being codified into the International Health Regulations?

Mr. Senger: It’s all a normalization process. It’s a very long-term normalization process and the Chinese Communist Party has been cultivating the World Health Organization. This has been written about in elite media outlets and sometimes they couldn’t even hide it, because it’s so explicit. The Chinese Communist Party has cultivated the World Health Organization over the course of a decade or more in order to have this level of influence in the World Health Organization.

These policies have been on the WHO’s books in some form or another for a long time, but these amendments add legitimacy to them. The amendments to health regulations and the upcoming treaty codify the policies, ask for more funding, and ask for the WHO to do even more of this. It creates a narrative that actually everything that happened in response to COVID-19 was perfectly okay. “We saved tons of lives, millions of lives, billions of lives, and we’re still counting,” all because of this really heavy handed totalitarian response around the world.

So, the only problem was that we need to do it even more next time, have more mandates, more testing, increased lockdowns and vaccine passes. And that’s a big one, always pushing these digital vaccine passes. It adds legitimacy and it gets leaders around the world to essentially pledge loyalty to this false narrative, that all this was necessary and all of it was legitimate and that it should be done again.

Mr. Jekielek: Given everything we’ve just talked about, you also have some thoughts about monkeypox. For example, President Biden said that everyone should be worried about this. This is a very, very different kind of virus as I understand it. It’s a venereal disease, this is not an airborne virus. So what are your thoughts on this?

Mr. Senger: So again, like you were saying, this may well be a venereal disease, and may well not even be airborne like COVID-19 was. This narrative doesn’t make any sense at all just like the COVID narrative never made sense from the beginning. But suddenly, we see this entire biosecurity apparatus launching into the same fear campaign, and advocating the same policies. Health officials in New York were talking about bringing back mask mandates for monkeypox, despite the fact that it’s widely believed to be venereal disease.

It’s absolutely nuts, but that’s how hard they’re pushing to try to get this power back and try to normalize these mandates yet again. They’re using monkeypox, as a pretext for this. Monkeypox was discovered in the 1950s, and first found in humans in the 1970s. It’s been around for quite a long time.

Previously, there were only outbreaks in Africa. This is supposedly the world’s very first global monkeypox outbreak. The elite media outlets all over the world, including the New York Times are breaking red alerts over monkeypox. This entire biosecurity apparatus is going back on red alert, because of monkeypox. But it turns out that a exactly a year ago, there was a simulation of a monkeypox outbreak, exactly this week and exactly this month, in May 2021.

What are the odds of that? That gives new significance to another simulation that happened before COVID, called The Event 201. Event 201 was a simulation of a big coronavirus pandemic. Pretty much everything that was hypothesized in Event 201 came true just shortly afterwards, just couple months later with COVID-19. They hypothesized a massive pandemic with mass testing, and essentially simulated the entire response to it. All these China-friendly organizations, the John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, the Gates Foundation, and many, many high level national security officials were involved in the simulation.

After they had the simulation, with all the events that came true soon after, there was dead silence from all the participants about the fact they had simulated something that just happened with the COVID-19. But it was plausible to say at that time, “Okay that’s just coincidence. We do these simulations every now and then, every year or so.” So, okay that could have been a coincidence.

But now we have not once, but twice within two years, that they have run a simulation of a massive unprecedented outbreak, the facts of which have come true just months later. The participants, our officials, are stone silent about the fact that with their simulation, the events are now coming true in real life. What does that mean? Does that mean that someone is out there infecting people with monkeypox to make these events come real? I don’t know. I don’t know the answer to that question.

Or it could be that the media and this biosecurity machine that caused so much catastrophic and upended effects during COVID-19 is just going back into full-tilt hysteria mode. They are essentially fabricating what is supposedly the world’s very first monkeypox outbreak with hysterical images. They are maybe identifying cases that always existed and now they’re just looking for it and suddenly it’s there. Someone is not playing straight with us here.

Mr. Jekielek: I want to grasp what you think are the significance of these coincidences, which you are saying are not coincidences.

Mr. Senger: I’m not sitting here and saying that the biosecurity folks are engaging in bioterrorism by unleashing super viruses all over the world. I don’t think any human being would do that, or especially groups of human beings. But what I am saying is this has now happened not only once, but twice. Previously, with Event 201 and those who knew about it, this was a simulation of a coronavirus pandemic. It happened just a couple months before what was supposedly the world’s largest ever coronavirus pandemic.

We didn’t get any word from the participants and the officials involved that there was anything unusual about this. They didn’t make note of it or make any announcements. It was an event that was attended by our own officials sitting right alongside high-level officials from Chinese Communist Party. Suddenly, we’re taking these policies in response to this virus straight from China, based on information that they gave us about this virus, and based on that, implement these policies that also came from China, to supposedly get rid of this virus.

It sounds ridiculous, because it is so utterly farcical in real life to do this, knowing that the Chinese Communist Party under Xi Jinping, is our chief political rival. It’s an absolutely farcical national security breach, and it’s one that needs serious attention.

Mr. Jekielek: I’m very curious what will happen with monkeypox. A lot of people are watching infectious disease more closely these days. At the very least, we now have a lot of information about what can happen. How do you think we’re going to respond to monkeypox?

Mr. Senger: With monkeypox, we’re really seeing this entire international biosecurity state with the World Health Organization at its head able to declare an emergency at any time they want with the entire planned out bureaucracy and all the things that they are trying to normalize all over the world. We’re seeing all that go back into motion. You’re getting this huge fear campaign coming out of the media about the first ever global monkeypox outbreak.

They’re really trying to normalize this endless state of emergency based on whatever disease they want to use at any given time. We’re starting to hear talk about bringing back these illiberal mandates based on monkeypox. Will they actually get away with that? I have no idea. I don’t know if the population has had enough. Fortunately, our resistance has been pretty effective, especially on the political right, especially here in America.

It has become very mainstream to oppose these mandates and oppose these lockdowns. Ron DeSantis in Florida has done a very good job in that respect. So, we’ll see if they get enough popular buy-in. But for a huge portion of the population of the Western world, especially in liberal states and local countries, they’re still very loyal to this narrative that millions or billions of lives were saved with these illiberal mandates, by forcing everybody to wear masks, forcing small businesses to shut down, forcing people to carry vaccine passes, and censoring anybody who dissents.

They are really trying to create an allegiance to this biomedical security state over people’s own constitutional values. There is no bigger story in the world right now than the forces that are at work to try to normalize this all over the world.

This is the new normal that they kept alluding to. This is the one that they were trying to create from the very beginning from that initial lockdown operation that got the entire world to lock down. From that point on, they set a precedent that elites can essentially violate any right at any time, and have this perpetual state of emergency which justifies anything, with both censorship and forcing people to wear masks.

This biomedical security state essentially upends the rule of law and allows elites to do whatever they want to in the name of this perpetual state of emergency. By going along with these mandates, people are essentially pledging their loyalty to this biomedical security state that supersedes our own democracy, our own constitutional framework that was left to us by our forebears.

That’s why you can’t let your guard down when the mandates go away. It’s easy to think, “Okay, that’s been rolled back, that’s behind us.” It’s not behind us, because the machinery is still there and it will be there as long as the truth does not come out about how horrific this response to COVID-19 was. The only way that will happen is to have enough popular support to get justice for the crimes that have been done. Not only is that important, to ensure that it never happens again, but justice has to be done for everybody who has been victimized by this response to COVID-19.

Millions of people lost their lives, their livelihoods, and children lost some of their brightest years of education, it’s absolutely horrific. For them, we need to have justice. This will be very clear to the children, just as it was to generations after Mao’s Great Leap Forward. It seems baffling to them that anybody could have possibly gone along with that narrative, that leaders in China at that time and experts around the world could have insisted that there was no famine happening.

In the clear eye view of hindsight, it’s so obvious that communist policies had led to that famine. That’s the same thing that’s going to happen with this pandemic situation. Our children are going to look back to this, and if you think what I’m saying is bolstering it right now, wait until you hear what they have to say. The sycophancy in defense of this response to COVID-19 that we’re hearing right now is going to become so completely obvious. They are not going to mince words or have anything nice to say about any elites, or anybody who didn’t speak up, and chose instead to sacrifice their childhood.

Mr. Jekielek: Michael you’re a San Francisco lawyer. People might not necessarily understand why COVID-19, lockdowns, and this whole realm have become your passion. How did that come about?

Mr. Senger: Because the effects of it are at my front door. San Francisco has been ground zero for lockdowns in this totalitarian response to COVID-19 within the United States. San Francisco was the first city in the United States to go into lockdown, followed shortly after by California being the very first state to go into lockdown.

When I first moved back to California in late December of 2020, it felt like I was going back to Pyongyang. The streets were just empty. It was in strict lockdown, everything was shut down, and small businesses completely shuttered. This is very real to me, and it is very personal to me. Going farther back when I was still living in Georgia, just seeing those images made me sick to my stomach.

I was just your typical Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Economist reader. I didn’t really have a big platform on my own. I saw all of the elites, all of the leaders, and all of the journalists  I trusted suddenly endorsing this policy that would upend human rights for people all over the world, and condemn people to starve for nothing more than the crime of being poor. I was actually quite liberal myself. To see people just abandon those principles, human rights, and the entire liberal project so quickly made me sick to my stomach.

Apparently, it didn’t mean as much to them, but it meant a lot to me. Everything that I’ve been doing for the last two years, has been in the name of human rights. I was so horrified by the crime that had just been committed, for a narrative that made absolutely no sense. I didn’t see anybody taking the influence of the Chinese Communist Party seriously, on these policies that were turning the world into China.

That was the scariest moment to me, realizing that there was nobody. I couldn’t find any officials, leaders, celebrities, journalists, or anybody else taking this question seriously, this question of the influence of the Chinese Communist Party on these policies. So, I started writing about it and one thing led to another, and now the book has been published and here it is, here’s the whole story. This is something that I wanted to get into print and left for future generations, so they would have the whole story in their hands. I really encourage people to check it out, because it’s all in there.

Mr. Jekielek: Absolutely. You mentioned the moment that you realized, wow, not a lot of people understand this level of influence. When was that moment where you realized that something was really amiss in the response?

Mr. Senger: Thinking back to the very beginning with COVID-19, I was always a statistics person, so I was not particularly alarmed. But when I saw liberal elites all over the world endorsing these massive crimes, upending everyone’s rights, throwing small business under the bus, throwing children under the bus, throwing the poor under the bus in just the most sickening way for this narrative that made absolutely no sense, that was what sickened me. When I saw Italy go into lockdown, I did a double take.

As somebody who understands and knows history and geopolitics, Italy, they’re part of the free world. It’s one thing for China to do this, but Italy, I thought they were like us. What was I missing there? Then, when I saw California going into lockdown, that’s the moment that I knew something was seriously off about this. Because California is a fairly new state in the grand scheme of things.  Not long ago, it was the wild west. This idea of lockdown, closing everybody’s business, shutting everybody out of work, is so completely antithetical to the values of not only of America, but of California in particular.

Suddenly, within a matter of days, that had been normalized as liberalism. As somebody who actually took human rights and liberal values quite seriously, that was absolutely horrifying to me to witness. When I started seeing, not just developed nations, but developing countries just tossing people out of work and condemning them, that is when I knew that there was something very wrong here. This is not the type of story where you can sit back and just hope it goes well. That’s why I decided I had to actually get involved and speak up.

Mr. Jekielek: Michael, it’s very interesting what you’re saying, because it also helps me understand why these lockdowns are the policy in Communist China, as we speak. Such a pleasure to have you on.

Mr. Senger: Thank you, Jan. The pleasure is all mine. Thank you so much for having me on.

Mr. Jekielek: Thank you all for joining Michael Senger and I on this episode of American Thought leaders. I’m your host, Jan Jekielek. The Epoch Times is growing quickly and we’re currently hiring an associate producer to join the Epoch TV team, to work on both American Thought Leaders and Kash’s Corner. It’s a time of rampant misinformation and propaganda, and you’ll be part of the solution as we bring back honest journalism. If you’re interested or you know someone who might be a good fit, head over to That’s, all one word. We look forward to hearing from you.

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