search icon
Dave Rubin: A Growing Alliance Against the ‘Cult’ of Woke Ideology

Woke ideology “infects every system that it’s in,” says Dave Rubin. “There’s no woke enough for the wokesters.”

At the recent FreedomFest conference in Rapid City, South Dakota, we sat down with Rubin to discuss an alliance of free thinkers—from classical liberals to religious conservatives to libertarians. There’s an opportunity for diverse groups to unite against the onslaught of woke ideology, Rubin says.

This week, Rubin will be announcing the title of his next book, right before he disappears off the grid for a month.

Jan Jekielek: Dave Rubin, it’s so great to have you back on American Thought Leaders.

Dave Rubin: Jan, it’s good to be with you and all these freedom loving people here. Here we are once again. They haven’t kicked us out yet.

Mr. Jekielek: You were talking earlier today about decent liberals being mugged by reality as a phenomenon that you experienced some years back, maybe four or five years ago. It’s something that has accelerated rather dramatically.

Mr. Rubin: It’s interesting because as you know, I live in the once great state of California. Hopefully we’re going to recall this Gavin Newsom guy and make it great again. That sounded like a little Trump riff there, but I would just like it to be anything better than it is at the moment.

Over the course of the last year and a half with these lockdowns and the mask mandates, often completely arbitrary, ridiculous decisions were made, in some cases by unelected officials, often by complete hypocrites—Gavin Newsom going to French Laundry, one of the most expensive restaurants in the state, in the country actually.

The woman, Sheila Kuehl, who was the three to two deciding vote when they shut down restaurants and outdoor eating last time, then went out to eat at dinner that night. And you see all these inconsistencies.

What it makes me realize is when I come to a event like here today, this stuff is the right idea—simple freedom, and staying out of people’s lives. The reason I bring up California with your question is these sort of good liberals mugged by reality.

When I would go to these rallies to open up the state, I would meet good liberals. These were not Republicans. Maybe they were Democrats, but they were usually apolitical people. They were business owners, restaurateurs, and people of that nature who suddenly couldn’t go to work, who suddenly couldn’t put food on the table.

Then suddenly they were like, “Whoa, now I see it.” This is the thing that I’ve been talking about for years, that something is wrong with the Left. Liberalism is not working in a modern, conventional sense. And then they start seeing it.

Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. So the question is, will they actually then go as far as to maybe vote for a guy like Larry Elder or Caitlyn Jenner or just someone that is not Gavin Newsom. We shall see.

Mr. Jekielek: Let’s go back four or five years ago to when you had your—I don’t know what to call it.

Mr. Rubin: Awakening.

Mr. Jekielek: I was going to use that term, but it seems like every word has become so loaded right now—meaning something different than what you actually mean.

Mr. Rubin: From woke to awake.

Mr. Jekielek: Wait, so you were woke?

Mr. Rubin: Look, I was a Lefty for sure. I was a progressive. I was a Bernie supporter. I worked for the Young Turks Network. You can find videos of me supporting Bernie Sanders.

Woke at that time wasn’t fully a thing, neither was identity politics, say five years ago. Now we all understand what it is and that it’s infecting virtually everything in this obsession with race and all of our immutable characteristics, which is just so dangerous and anti-American in so many ways.

That was just sort of starting. I would say I was a progressive in that I believed in those economic policies, I believed in those foreign policies, things of that nature.

The wokeism part of it was just starting, the obsession with race and things like that. I don’t know that I was ever fully woke like that, but I certainly was a Lefty. Then when I started saying, “Hey, Lefties, let’s stop calling everybody racist. Let’s try not to impugn motives. Let’s try to agree to disagree, and put our hand across the table and see what happens.”

All I got from the Left was hate. And then the bizarre part of course was that all I got was a handout from the Right saying, “Hey, we’re over here. You want to talk to us?” Then fairly quickly I realized that these were not people that were as bad as I had been led to believe.

Mr. Jekielek: I can’t help but think back, and I’m sure you’ve discussed this probably a thousand times over the past few years. I was just talking about it with someone earlier today, the moment that you decided to keep Larry Elder on your show, funny that you mentioned him. He challenged you on systemic racism. Was this was a pivotal moment?

Mr. Rubin: It was really the clincher in many ways. I talk about it in “Don’t Burn This Book.” I had several other awakenings over the course of a couple of years.

There were several other moments where I thought something’s not right with the Left. I had been piecing it all together. Then I did this sit down with Larry and I still considered myself of the Left. You can watch videos that I was doing at the time, still there on YouTube, where I was talking about how the Lefties have to fix liberalism.

We have to stop acting so illiberally. This has nothing to do with the liberalism that I know, the JFK liberalism. What’s happening to us?

I sat down with Larry and he was a really tried and true—I was going to say conservative—small-L-libertarian to conservative, somewhere in there, but certainly not a Lefty, let’s put it that way.

I sat down with him and I treated him exactly how I would treat all my guests, which is what I always do, which is the same thing you do, with a decent amount of respect and an open mind and a hope that there’s going to be some sort of interesting discourse.

Most people have seen this already because it’s gone viral so many times. But in essence I said, “Well, tell me about systemic racism.” I think what Lefties often do is say something and just by the nature of you saying it, you think it means it’s true.

Larry just flipped it on its head and he started rifling off statistics about police brutality and affirmative action and the black family and a whole series of other things. What became such a meme-worthy moment was that I really listened to him.

I was not ready to be in that fight because I wasn’t armed with facts. He was. Then subsequently I went on my own journey. I went down that path to see where that path would lead.

I went from, “Okay, I talked to Larry Elder. Well, maybe I could talk to that Ben Shapiro guy now. Maybe I could talk to Dennis Prager and Glenn Beck.” Then before I realized it, I said, “These guys aren’t that bad. They know what they think and why they think it.”

They think about life seriously. I may have some political differences with them, but they relish in that. That’s why that moment became so important and it has caused so many other people to wake up because they got to see me do it in real time.

Mr. Jekielek: Why do you think that folks aren’t willing to do the listening that you did, folks in a similar position—or are they in a similar position?

Mr. Rubin: Some people are willing to. Unfortunately politics has become so frayed and it’s so everywhere right now that it has infected everything.

You turn on a comedy show, it’s political. You turn on ESPN, it’s political. Politics is just everywhere, which to me is a sign that something’s very unhealthy about the system.

In a good political system, you wouldn’t have to talk about it that often because it wouldn’t be affecting your daily life very much. That is what’s so dangerous about this last year and a half. We already had big government in America. Now we have government that can say you’re going to lockdown and stay in your house. We’re going to give you more money not to work.

Government has gotten bigger in all of this. It looms larger in all of our lives. Every late night show is politics 24/7. A lot of people are willing to listen. It’s a little bit of the chicken or the egg. Maybe there weren’t enough hosts that were willing to have a humble moment. For whatever reason, I was willing to do that.

Mr. Jekielek: It’s very rare for most hosts to have humble moments. I haven’t seen that many. That’s one of the reasons you probably got so much play.

Mr. Rubin: I suppose that is true. I was a player in that play so it’s hard for me to analyze it in that regard. But I just did what I thought was right. That really is the truth.

I went back into the control room and I discussed it with my guys. Immediately the producer said, “Oh, we’ll cut it. Don’t worry about it. We’re not going to leave it in” I just said, “No, if this is what I’m doing as a living, if I believe in open discourse, if I really want to hear what people think, well, then I can’t take out the parts where people know something more than I do and are more aware of what’s going on, and remove these statistics.”

If it had been a personal fight, if he had said something personally attacking me, then maybe we would have edited it, but probably not then either.

But in this case, I thought that was a real moment. If you’re going to take the real moment out, well, then, what are you doing really? Hopefully people will watch this and feel that there’s something enlightening here, and something worth listening to.

By the way, I think you’re a pretty decent interviewer because I’m not that well-versed in all of your beliefs. You strike me as someone that’s curious and honest and wants to have a conversation, which is what an interviewer is supposed to do.

But if there was a moment where I just went on a two minute riff that was really counter to what you believe, I suspect you would leave it in. That’s what we need more of.

Why more people aren’t open to it, it’s partly humility on behalf of the host. Then it’s just the general sort of hyper-partisan political thing where everyone wants to be right all the time. Nobody ever wants to be seen as wrong or mistaken. We’re humans—sometimes we’re wrong and mistaken.

Mr. Jekielek: I do think you’re right. I do think there’s this idea that you can’t demonstrate being wrong, certainly among politicians. It’s very unusual to see that.

I remember interviewing Ron DeSantis about lockdowns, and he said that he felt that he hadn’t made a good decision about locking down for the brief time that they did. It was very remarkable to a lot of people that he would say that.

This morning, you said that politics has become a religion, and I noted that. I hadn’t quite thought about it that way. But if it is a religion, it doesn’t strike me as a good religion.

Mr. Rubin: It has the markings more of a cult than a religion in a certain way—with what’s happening in the country where suddenly you can’t say that there are biological differences between males and females. Something that we all know to be true.

We’re suddenly debating whether capitalism is a better economic system than communism, something we all know to be true. We’re debating whether the founding documents of the United States are good or bad, which we all know are good, not bad.

The reason for that is the Left has come in with a really horrific set of totalitarian ideas that in many ways, act as a cult. If you don’t agree with the 10 things that comes out of the woke Left right now, the second they decide what they are, you’re out.

They’re purging an awful lot of people, like that mugged liberal. Either you bow to it or you’re held hostage to it. You might do what I did and say, “Oh, there’s something over there. I see a lot of scorched earth over here, but I see a lot of fertile ground over there. That’s much more interesting to me.”

Also, some of the markings of a cult would be that you can’t get out of it. Well, you really can’t get out with these guys. They will try to destroy you and mob you and take your job. This is what cancel culture is. Also in many religions and cults you are born guilty. In this case, white Christian men are born guilty, according to the Left, by their logic. Not by my logic, of course.

What I would like to do is get people out of that cult. But I would just say one other thing on this. The constant obsession with politics as if it’s the sum totality of what existence is all about is very dangerous for everybody.

Joe Biden is not going to solve your problems. And by the way, Donald Trump’s not going to solve your problems. That’s not to say all politicians are equally bad, but the answer really comes from you. It comes from your local community. It comes from a bottom-up way of looking at the world. It does not come because Joe Biden signed an executive order.

Mr. Jekielek: As you started reaching out publicly to people outside of the accepted circle four or five years ago, you experienced the early days of cancellation. Has that changed at all? Has it accelerated, and is it now on steroids? What has changed in this time from what you’ve seen?

Mr. Rubin: I would say when it first happened, when I first started talking about there’s something wrong with the Left and then being willing to have a conversation with some of the guys I just mentioned, suddenly I was getting all these hit pieces written about me that I’m a white supremacist.

It’s always some white version of something. It was coming from HuffPo and it was coming from Vox and the New York Times—all of these places that at one time I thought were decent outfits of journalism.

At first it really bothered me because nobody wants to see in print that they’re a white supremacist or that they’re the worst thing in the world, or have my dad who still subscribes to the New York Times, open up the New York Times and see a ridiculous article about how YouTube leads people to the alt-right, with a big picture of my face.

Nobody wants to see these things, and of course, especially when they’re not true. They’re actually completely counter to that. Everything that I talk about on the show, every idea that I promote in my book is counter to the collectivist ideas that would be thought of as white supremacist or racist or bigoted.

But what’s interesting to me is that at first I used to have to defend myself. Then I’d get into Twitter wars with people and I’d have a lot of people backing me up. What’s interesting now is it still happens. Just in the last few weeks the New York Times implied that I host white supremacists, which in essence, is calling me a white supremacist.

Now what I realized is that my fans usually defend me and I can step back. When they say that about me, when I see that in the New York Times, the heart rate doesn’t change, the blood pressure doesn’t change, because it’s like, “You guys are up to your same old games and I’m still here. Not only am I still here, I’m bigger, I’m better and I’m stronger than I was because I’ve been through the mill.”

That being said, I get it when people are concerned about that. People don’t want to lose their jobs. It’s not fun to be flamed and mobbed on Twitter. But if you survive it, you will come out stronger on the other side. That’s the goal.

Mr. Jekielek: I’ve definitely heard this, pretty much exactly the same thing from multiple people that I’ve had on the show that have had this sort of thing happen. They say, “Well, it gives you an odd sense of empowerment once you’re on the other side because, okay, so I’ve been canceled.”

Mr. Rubin: It’s also patently ridiculous. The thing is I like criticism and I really mean this. I like genuine criticism. I’ve had articles written about me that weren’t hit pieces, but were genuine, “Dave’s good at this, but not good at this.”

I may not agree with that, but I actually think if someone is thoughtful enough to watch a bunch of my interviews and say, “Maybe Dave should have followed up here with this question, or he didn’t ask this to that person.” That’s okay. That’s totally fine. First off, it’s your opinion and no one is above criticism. I like that.

What I don’t like is these absurd, ridiculous, over-the-top claims that I’m a Nazi and a bigot and all that. But when you get to the other side, and you have your own base, your own supporters defending you, then it’s like kind of funny. You guys are still doing this. New York Times, you place of journalism, that gets everything wrong all the time, you’re still going after me for this nonsense. You’re saying far more about yourself than you’re saying about me.

Mr. Jekielek: Why do you think there is no self-reflection, no kind of looking back?

Mr. Rubin: Because liberalism has failed. That’s a very sad precept for me to say, it’s a sad notion for me to talk about it. My entire book is defending liberalism. I believe that classical liberalism in a healthy system is the best, widest tent view of looking at the world.

Our system, though, is infected right now. Wokeism has infected the system and it is destroying everything. Let’s say the New York Times was always sort of Left, but it wasn’t bananas Left. There was a big plurality of opinion there and obviously Barry Weiss was there.

Barry Weiss, who’s a liberal. She’s a liberal, which doesn’t even really make sense to me anymore. But God bless her, she’s a liberal. She couldn’t even take it there anymore because there’s no Left far enough for the Left. There’s no woke enough for the wokesters.

They’re constantly purging people and as they do that purge, they’re going to destroy every institution that they’re let into.

ESPN goes woke. They start talking about race all day and then what’s the result? ESPN’s ratings are terrible. They’re in constant wars with their employees over who’s the most racist and should a black person be the sideline reporter at the NBA game and let’s get rid of that white girl.

I’m talking about the Rachel Nichols story from a couple of weeks ago that you may remember. Wokeism infects every system that it’s in. The only systems that will survive are ones that don’t let it in, which probably are going to be very conservative systems or new systems that are going to have a better set of ground rules from the beginning.

Mr. Jekielek: That’s very interesting. I talked with Naomi Wolf about this. And Peter Boghossian really captured my imagination with this a while back in an interview where he basically said the Left-Right spectrum isn’t really interesting to him anymore.

I agree. The spectrum for me is cognitive liberty on one side and on the other side, I still haven’t quite figured out exactly what you call the thing on the other side.

Mr. Rubin: It’s cognitive liberty or sort of cognitive surrender. Something like that.

Mr. Jekielek: Yes. Exactly.

Mr. Rubin: Cognitive outsourcing. How about that?

Mr. Jekielek: Okay. That’s very interesting because yes, you’re happy with having someone else’s beliefs imposed on you. There is the collection of those people on one side and on the other side people who believe that they should be able to believe whatever they want.

There is something much bigger than conservative here. There is also this group of mugged-by-reality liberals, Naomi Wolf called them disaffected.

Mr. Rubin: Probably disaffected liberal or something like that. They need to be disinfected too. That’s a different thing. But that is interesting to me. I’ll tell you this—next week we’re going to announce the title of my next book.

Mr. Jekielek: Let’s get some hints here.

Mr. Rubin: I’ll give you a hint. I’m dropping this for the first time. I’m not going to give you the title because I have been sworn to secrecy by the publisher. But I will tell you that at one time I wanted the book to be called The Future Conservative. There were two that I liked.

I liked The Modern Conservative and The Future Conservative. My feeling was I had written a book defending liberalism. I believe that the ideas that I put forth in that book were the correct ideas.

I believe those are the ideas that America was founded on. Now we need to move into something broader where the traditionally religious conservative, the more liberty-minded, the liberal, the ex-liberal, the neo-con, the Trump people, the anti-Trump people, we are all sort of roughly on the same side.

We believe in individual rights. We believe that America is fundamentally good. Yes,we might disagree on some tax stuff. We might disagree on foreign policy. But we all basically believe that the thing that’s been going on here for 250 years is pretty good.

Then you have the wokesters and everything else that’s going on in the Left and they are here to destroy everything. I see that as a much bigger enemy right now. What I would like to do is keep the alliance. We can use an X-Men reference, or an Avengers reference, or we can do a Lord of the Rings thing.

I would like an alliance of people that think different things to say, “You know what, you’re more religious, this person happens to be gay. You don’t believe that drugs should be legal, this person believes that marijuana should be legal. But those are not the structural issues that are under assault right now.

There is a structural issue under assault, which is the very foundation of America. Let’s put that other stuff aside. Let’s be the best of ourselves. Let’s argue that stuff out.” I think there’s a real opportunity for that on the Right.

That’s why in many ways, the crazier the Left gets, it’s better for everybody, as long as they don’t burn the whole thing down. Because it is waking up people in droves. Someone like Naomi Wolf, who I chatted with yesterday, she’s waking up.

But you know, you don’t wake up like this in most cases. Very few people do. Candace Owens was a former Lefty. She woke up like this. For most people, it’s a slow awakening. It’s a shocking awakening. It’s awake, slumber, awake, slumber and then finally an awakening. You have to make room for all of those people.

Mr. Jekielek: You’re going to be announcing your book and then you’re going to disappear for a month?

Mr. Rubin: Yes. That’s how we’re doing it. On July 30th, I go off the grid for a month. This will be the fifth year that I’m doing it. No phone, no iPad, no computer, no TV, no news, no current events, nothing. I’m going to disappear for a month. I do nothing technological. I’m going to catch up on some reading. I’m going to sit on the beach and go to an undisclosed location.

Then I come back September 1st and comedian Adam Carolla is going to host the show and he’ll do about two hours bringing me back with everything that I missed. For all I know, Joe Biden’s brain will have exploded, America will be under the communist regime. Who knows what will happen this year? COVID will be locked down.

Mr. Jekielek: Wait, wait, wait. There’s going to be no communist regime in America in a month’s time.

Mr. Rubin: All right. You’re a dreamer. You’re an optimist. We’ll see what happens. But yes, I’m going to announce the book on the 30th and then I have a couple of big announcements related to my tech company, Locals.com, that we’re going to make that day and then I disappear. It’s a nice way to go off the grid.

Mr. Jekielek: You started this five odd years ago, probably just to protect yourself from attack or something like that?

Mr. Rubin: I had been under a lot of stress. It was sort of a joke in a way. Can I do it? It was something so crazy. I was just like, can I do it? And then on the other hand, I realized that it was something that I needed in a certain way.

The stress—I can joke about it now because everything’s okay. But the stress of the hate and the mobs and all of those things, it did take a toll on me. I talk about it in the book. I developed an autoimmune disorder called Alopecia Areata. I literally lost about 40 per cent of my hair. I was spraying in hair and powder. And then I took a very experimental medication that caused all sorts of other physical problems.

But then I realized that if I’m going to be in this game, if I’m going to do this, I better figure out a way to de-stress properly. That was part of why I started doing this. As you probably know, I don’t tweet on the weekends.

I try not to take my phone into my bedroom because the last thing that you do at night shouldn’t be looking at Twitter. And the first thing that you do in the morning shouldn’t be seeing what your comments are. I’ve tried to figure out a way to give myself a little room in this digital landscape that we live in.

Mr. Jekielek: Exactly. What has been your experience of descreening? Like you, I basically spend all my time on screens. But you’re spending a month a year with no screens, actually.

Mr. Rubin: Literally no screens, which can be very difficult at times too, even if you put all your stuff away. If you’re a functioning member of society, unless you’re going to hide out in a basement, if you go to the burger joint, they usually have a TV. You go to the gym, there’s TVs everywhere, at all of these places.

I really had to figure out ways to avoid all of those things. Ironically last year, 2020, was the easiest year to do it because of lockdowns. I was pretty much at home the entire time. That actually made it quite easy. This year will definitely be more challenging. I’m running other businesses now, and that’s going to be challenging as well. But that’s the point. That’s just the point.

I know I have the luxury because I have a great team around me and an assistant and people that will take care and make sure my businesses don’t crumble without me and make sure that I’m ready to be back when I’m back.

But I find it to be a transcendent time. There’s always a time I would say about halfway through where it’s just like, wow, my brain has calmed down. My perspective changes, with more patience. I’m pretty cool wired as is, but I feel calmer. If I go to the store, I’m a little more friendly with the cashier. We don’t know the way these things are infecting us and affecting us and that’s why I do it.

Mr. Jekielek: Here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to issue a challenge to myself, and to our producer over here. I’m going to make a very simple challenge to our viewers because I have a suspicion that this is something that’s been very helpful to you over the last few years. Even for a day, I think it might be difficult for some of us. That’s my challenge. That’s my challenge to myself, to our producer here and to our viewers. Take a day.

Mr. Rubin: One day. I’ll issue you a challenge. My challenge to you is you don’t have to do it this Saturday because you’re on the road right now. But maybe next Saturday or that first Saturday that you go off the grid, just take the day. Just you. Friday night just put your phone downstairs and just forget about it and just don’t get back on until Sunday morning.

Guess what? Yes, you’re going to go to your pocket often. You’re going to get phantom buzzes. You’re going to wonder did some story happened that I have to talk about? But you will be okay. And not only will you be okay, you will be better. You will realize at some point during the day that it is incredibly freeing to live just as we lived remarkably 20 years ago.

Mr. Jekielek: You know what I’m thinking right now? It’s going to be the biggest story of the decade.

Mr. Rubin: Of course. But you know what? Even if that happens, you realize no matter what, the world goes around and it’s going to come around again and you will be okay. I promise you. You will be okay.

Mr. Jekielek: I’m going to invite our audience watching to put it in the comments. If you do this, I want you to tell me what it did for you. And I’ll do the samefor you. I’ll do a follow-up.

Mr. Rubin: I have never once spoken to someone that tried it for a day—sometimes I can get my Locals community to do it for a weekend—I’ve never spoken to one person one time who said, “Boy, that was terrible.” Everybody says it’s great. Everybody says it’s great.

By the way, I’m not sitting here saying these things are horrible. I have all my problems with big tech that you are well aware of. We all have our addictive scrolling on Twitter. You often do something called doom scrolling where you’re just looking for something negative.

Webpages used to end. Remember the old internet where on a webpage you’d click on something and then you’d get to the end of the page and then you’d have to click back. Well, now most web pages have endless scroll. You just go and go forever.

You open up Netflix, it scrolls forever. You go to YouTube search, it scrolls forever. They’re keeping us in this rat race constantly. I don’t think that’s very good for the human brain. I have a feeling that anyone that took some time off from these things might connect with something that we used to know, that we’re starting to forget right now.

Mr. Jekielek: I love that. Let’s talk about big tech for a moment. One of the reasons we started Epoch TV, I mentioned this a number of times, but I’ll talk about it here as well, probably has to do with how you started Locals as well.

I found myself thinking, can I even cover this issue? This is something I feel is really important, but if I cover it, YouTube is my main form of marketing for this show. What if they cut the video? What if they deplatform me? I thought this is crazy. I can’t be thinking this.

Anyway, we have a platform. You have a platform. Are you still on YouTube? I use it mainly for just teasers and things like that. But do you find yourself self-censoring?

Mr. Rubin: A little bit. Look, I interviewed President Trump about a month ago and he said two or three lines. I think it was three sentences that added up to something around 37 seconds that we felt if we put on YouTube, they could give us a strike. The way the YouTube world works you get three strikes and you’re out.

But in essence, once you have one strike, you can’t livestream anymore and then next thing they could just blow up your channel. What we did was we played the interview as is. I don’t like to edit, but we did put soundbars over those three sentences.

Then I put the full thing on Locals.com and it’s completely unedited. If you want to join and listen then you can. There is a paywall, it’s subscription-based. But I do believe that that a little bit of money, a little bit of skin in the game is worth it.

We charge $5 a month for my Locals community. The minimum you can charge on Locals is two. It’s up to you the creator to set whatever you want to set. But a few other times in the last few weeks, I did have some moments where other guests brought up election fraud-related things. And I have to sit there thinking, especially if we’re doing it live, “Look, we’re only there by the grace of YouTube. They could pull the plug on us at any moment.”

That’s not a great way to run a business or live a life, believing that you are left to the arbitrary whims of some giant tech company. That’s not good. That’s exactly why I started Locals. I love that you guys started a TV thing. I love that human ingenuity out there, people taking these issues seriously and innovating. It’s a beautiful thing. That’s what humans do.

Mr. Jekielek: Absolutely. But what the expectations are on these big platforms actually keeps changing. It seems like it’s a moving target.

Mr. Rubin: It’s completely amorphous. Nobody knows what the rules are. Nobody knows when the rules are going to be enforced. Nobody knows who’s enforcing the rules and nobody knows if they’re going to be enforced the same way the next day.

This is a series of completely insane ways to run businesses and to actually be able to communicate information properly.

Of course, the other part related to mainstream media or the corporate press is they get so many things wrong or things that they tell us one way, that we find out to be true later. There is this whole meme of misinformation right now.

Joe Biden doesn’t want us spreading misinformation. Jen Psaki is telling social media companies not to allow misinformation on their platforms.

Well, all right. You don’t want misinformation on your platforms. Well, remember when Brett Kavanaugh was a rapist for several months and that all turned out to be untrue? Remember when the Covington kids were racist? Remember when Jussie Smollett was almost lynched? Do you remember Trump and Russia?

There is a litany of things. This doesn’t even talk about COVID, what’s gone on with things that were true one day and not true the next day. Masks work and then they don’t work. Lockdowns work and then they don’t.

It’s like, we’d all have to ban everybody. Everybody in essence would be banned if there was any sort of consistent thought here and there just simply isn’t.

Mr. Jekielek: Let’s finish up. We’ve never mentioned the name of your book, Don’t Burn This Book. I really enjoyed reading it. The last time we interviewed was specifically about the book. I want to make sure that people know what book we’re talking about.

Mr. Rubin: I appreciate it. Very professional.

Mr. Jekielek: What is the name of the next one, again?

Mr. Rubin: I can’t tell you. I will announce it in a few days. It was almost The Future Conservative, but I think you will like the title.

Mr. Jekielek: Any final thoughts?

Mr. Rubin: Well, it’s always good to see you and I’m glad you guys are doing good work. When I come to events like this and I see people that over the years are still in the game, and still going, that’s what it’s all about.

For anybody watching this, whatever it is you want to do in life, whether you want to be a guy in a nice suit with a microphone, or whether you want to start a restaurant, or you want to own a bowling alley, it’s like, do it.

Go out there and do it. If we had more of that spirit, we wouldn’t be so reliant on the government and I think that would be the answer to a lot of problems.

Mr. Jekielek: Dave Rubin, it’s such a pleasure to have you on again.

Mr. Rubin: Always great to see you.

Subscribe to the American Thought Leaders newsletter so you never miss an episode.

You can also follow American Thought Leaders on Parler, Facebook, or YouTube. If you’d like to donate to support our work, you can do so here.

Follow Epoch TV on Facebook and Twitter.