‘Commissioner Made Me Feel as if I Was Stupid’: Senior RCMP Officer Tells MPs of Alleged Pressure to Release Info on NS Tragedy Firearms

RCMP Chief Supt. Darren Campbell speaks with Director of Strategic Communications Unit Lia Scanlan as they wait to appear before the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security in Ottawa on Aug. 16, 2022. (The Canadian Press/Adrian Wyld)

A senior Mountie involved in the response to the 2020 mass killings in Nova Scotia says RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki didn’t seem to recognize “the importance of maintaining the integrity of an investigation,” as he says she pressed him on releasing information about the firearms used in the killings, which could support the federal government’s gun control legislation.

“The commissioner made me feel as if I was stupid, and I didn’t seem to understand the importance of why this information was important to go out—the information specific to the firearms as it was related to the legislation,” RCMP Chief Supt. Darren Campbell said at an Aug. 16 meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

The committee is currently examining allegations of political interference in the investigation into the 2020 tragedy.

Notes from Campbell from an April 28, 2020, meeting released by a public inquiry into the tragedy said that Lucki had scolded RCMP staff at the meeting for not disclosing details about the firearms. The notes also said that Lucki had made a “promise” to then-public safety minister Bill Blair and the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) that the information would be released. The notes said that “this was tied to pending gun control legislation.”

Campbell’s account was confirmed by other RCMP staff, including Campbell’s superior at the time and other senior members.

Lee Bergerman, the former RCMP Commanding Officer of H Division in Nova Scotia, who has since retired, responded affirmatively at a July 25 meeting of the committee when Conservative MP Raquel Dancho asked if Lucki “said the pressure was from [Blair] and the Prime Minister’s Office,” and that it was related to the forthcoming gun policy of the Liberal government.

Chief Supt. Chris Leather, director of criminal operations in Nova Scotia, who also attended the April 28, 2020, meeting, said at the July 25 committee meeting: “I would agree with the statements made concerning the minister, the Prime Minister’s Office, and the impending gun legislation.”

An April 14, 2021, letter written by the Nova Scotia RCMP strategic communications director Lia Scanlan and made public by the inquiry in June also said Lucki “informed us of the pressures and conversation with Minister Blair, which we clearly understood was related to the upcoming passing of the gun legislation.”

Scanlan, who also testified at the Aug. 16 committee meeting, said she had a “feeling of disgust” as to what happened during the April 28, 2020, meeting.

“I was embarrassed to be a part of it,” she said.

RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki speaks at a news conference in Ottawa on Oct. 21, 2020. (The Canadian Press/Adrian Wyld)

Blair has maintained that he did not put any pressure on Lucki to reveal information on the firearms.

“At no point did I direct the RCMP in any operational matter, including on public communications. I did not ask them to release any specific information nor did I receive a promise for them to do so,” Blair said at a meeting of the committee on July 25.

Lucki said at the same meeting that she wasn’t directed by the government to release the information on the firearms but that she was asked by Blair’s chief of staff if she would do so.

“Asking questions is not interference,” Lucki said. “I can clearly say that I was not interfered with, I was not directed, and I did not cross any line.”

Lucki said that she did use the term “promise” in the meeting but that there was a miscommunication.

“Regarding my use of the word ‘promise’ during the [April 28, 2020,] meeting I had with my team following that press conference at that time, and in that context, I was trying to convey that I’d already confirmed to the minister that the information about the weapons would be released during the press conference, a confirmation made based on the information I had been provided.”

This “miscommunication” resulted in Lucki providing inaccurate information to her superiors, she said.

“I felt I had misinformed the minister and by extension, the prime minister.”

Investigation Integrity

Campbell said during the Aug. 16 committee meeting that given his position, he wouldn’t be liaising with ministers, and he wasn’t party to any conversations from the government with Lucki on the issue of firearms, but that he believes there was pressure on Lucki “because of the emotions and the need for answers.”

“There were many people who were asking a number of questions, and I would imagine that would have placed a considerable amount of pressure on the commissioner of the RCMP at the time,” Campbell said.

Liberal MP  Taleeb Noormohamed said at the committee meeting that Blair has said he didn’t ask for the release of the firearms information and that Lucki has said she didn’t feel pressured by Blair or his office to take any action. He asked Campbell for confirmation that he never directly heard Blair’s office or the prime minister or his office issuing directions on the issue.

“You never heard the prime minister direct anyone to do anything, is that correct?” Noormohamed asked.

Minister of Emergency Preparedness Bill Blair speaks with reporters as he arrives for a caucus meeting on Parliament Hill in Ottawa on June 22, 2022. (Patrick Doyle/The Canadian Press)

Campbell confirmed that he didn’t hear Blair or the PMO issue directions, but said the “evidence is clear” that there was interest by Blair’s office on the firearms.

“There has been evidence before this committee of emails that would suggest a certain or significant interest in that information from the minister’s office, between the commissioner of the RCMP’s office,” he said.

Campbell has said publicly releasing the information about the firearms would have compromised their ongoing investigation into the killings.

“[Lucki] didn’t seem to appreciate or recognize the importance of maintaining the integrity of an investigation,” Campbell said.

He added that the information about the firearms wasn’t released by the RCMP, but rather through an access to information request made to the PMO in November 2020. Media reported on the details of the guns used in that month. The firearms were not obtained legally, with some of them sourced from the United States.

The Liberal government announced a ban of 1,500 “assault-style” firearms in May 2020. Blair told the parliamentary committee on July 25 that his government decided to announce the ban shortly after the mass killing incident.

Lucki has said that she “did not interfere” in the investigation into the tragedy.

Noé Chartier and Isaac Teo contributed to this report.