Wei Jingsheng is known as the “Nelson Mandela of China”, he is the best-known Chinese human rights seeker and democracy fighter working to improve China as well as the receiver of numerous human rights awards. Wei Jingsheng has also been nominated for the Noble Peace Prize seven times since 1993.
I caught up to Wei Jingsheng during his stop in Chicago on a recent trip. We discussed a few topics including the rise and fall of China, how China and the U.S influence each other, the protection of rights for Falun Gong practitioners and the democratic movements in China.
Lin Chong: Based on your experiences with democratic movements over the past several decades, how do you see the current political and economic situation in Mainland China and how will it influence the world? We observe two completely different perspectives: one group of people think that China is rising and is growing stronger and stronger and there might be a new international order due to the rise of China. The other group strongly believes in “the fall of China” and that the fall is going to happen soon. What is your opinion on these two perspectives?
Wei Jingsheng: Actually the two perspectives are interrelated. Of course some people maintain a positive view when talking about the “rise” of China. They focus on the prosperity of China’s economic situation and the stability of China’s political situation and they talk from a positive angle. But from the other perspective, the so-called “rise of China” means more and more of China’s aggressive foreign relationship or foreign policies. This indicates a sense of urgency from the Chinese government.
From Jiang Zemin’s regime to Hu Jintao’s regime, one trend is becoming more and more obvious—how to resolve China’s issues through foreign affairs that cannot be resolved within China. It is related to the theory of “the fall of China”. Looking at the situation in China, although there is fast development in certain areas and although many high-rise buildings were built, there still exist very serious problems. These problems are extraordinarily serious and any other country with similar problems would have collapsed already. But China still survives in the midst of these struggles.
This situation is putting pressure on the Chinese government. The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) cannot resolve the issues unless it gives up its power. Since it does not want to give up its power, it plans to extend its power outside of China. So its intention to expand outside of China is more and more obvious and it has become more and more aggressive. Therefore, on the surface China seems to be growing stronger and rising higher, in actuality, it is a symptom of its crisis.
After Hu Jintao Established His Regime
Ling Chong: The Wei Jingsheng Foundation recently published news that many human rights activists have been threatened and mistreated by the CCP, and they have appealed to the international society to pay attention to this new round of persecution by the CCP. After Hu Jintao established his regime many people had high expectations for him, thinking that he could be the next Gorbachev of China. But at the same time, he arrested masses of dissidents, strongly persecuted human rights movements and escalated the persecutions toward Falun Gong. He has shattered the hope people had for him. He has also strengthened the control of the CCP ideology on people. Why do you think Hu Jintao has conducted these activities and why did people have high expectations for him?
Wei Jingsheng: I think people have an optimistic expectation, hoping that someone with wisdom will step out of the CCP and compromise, so that the country can avoid disaster. But the CCP had used people’s optimism as propaganda to brush up Hu Jintao’s image. For a period of time, some people were saying that Hu Jintao was very promising. They were not even willing to listen to different opinions of him. They thought that Hu Jintao was a nice person, he was the Gorbachev of China.
People forgot Hu Jintao is a dictator by nature serving his ruling regime. How can he step out and compromise? How can he give up the one-party dictatorship of the CCP? Inevitably, he would break people’s hope through his actions.
Once Hu Jintao obtained power and started running the government, he needed to make sure to maintain his regime. He would certainly pressure people, massively arrest dissidents and persecute various religious groups. He would tackle with force whatever he thought could threaten his regime. This was an unavoidable phenomenon.
How do China and the U.S Influence Each Other
Lin Chong: During the 2005 Human Rights Conference in Geneva, the U.S. decided against a proposal to condemn the human rights record of China. Moreover, not too long ago, the way in which the Australian government handled the Chen Yonglin case, regarding a Chinese diplomat seeking asylum, was not representative of a democratic country. Why do you think these superior democratic countries are acting this way when facing worldly issues such as democracy, human rights and freedom? The western societies obstructed the former Soviet Union with all their efforts, why are they so tolerant when it comes to the CCP?
Wei Jingsheng: I think it is a little more complicated. When I heard that the U.S. decided not to condemn the human rights violations in China this year, I immediately discussed it with the U.S. government—the State Department. The assistant Sectary of the State told me several important reasons.
The first reason is that the impact of their past strategy on improving the human rights situation in China is not very obvious, although we cannot say it was not effective. So the U.S. wants to change the strategy and give into the CCP a certain extent while asking the CCP to accept some conditions. The CCP did accept these conditions. Therefore, the U.S. wants to test this policy of giving the CCP a chance for a period of time. If the CCP does not keep its promise, the U.S. will resort to the old way; if the CCP fulfills these conditions, it would be great and the human rights situation in China would improve quickly. Of course, no one expects the CCP to do much, but we hope that the CCP will at least improve a little.
There is another reason that the U.S. government cannot publicly disclose, neither was I told directly. It is an issue that people discuss widely. In fact, the nuclear problem of North Korea has caused a serious crisis in Asia, much more serious than people can imagine. In order for the U.S. government to solve this problem, it gives into the Chinese government and requires the CCP to compromise in handling the nuclear issue of North Korea. If this strategy could contribute to defending the peace in Asia, I think it may be necessary sometimes for us Chinese to sacrifice a little. There is nothing we can do.
For these reasons, the U.S. did not raise a resolution to condemn China’s human rights violations this year. This can be related to the weak attitude Western governments have or it can be considered as not being directly related.
However, the question you just raised is very important, That is, why the Western governments appear so weak on the democratic and human rights issues? They hold one attitude towards the former USSR and another for China; one policy towards South Africa and another towards China. They even use completely different standards. Since I have been working on these issues directly these years, I have come in touch with some issues that are hard to understand by the general public. How can there be such dramatic differences?
I figure there are several reasons. The CCP has had a successful strategy in buying over diplomatically. It uses large enterprises in Western countries to deal with Western politicians, hence indirectly influencing Western governments. This strategy has been quite successful. The Western governments have not figured out a way to adapt to or handle this, so they have been heavily influenced by this strategy and their corresponding policies appear to be weak, extremely weak in responding to China.
They can condemn an African country, and even attack a middle-sized nation, such as Iraq and Afghan, but they do not even dare to criticize the CCP. This is very strange.
Moreover, the Chinese government uses the conflicts between Europe and the U.S. to sow discord and then let them to compete in flattering the Chinese government. This situation disgusts Westerners. When some Western countries discuss this issue with us in private they also express disgust, but sometimes they feel there is no alternative because there are many political interests involved. The CCP has already extended its hand in this direction; it carries direct influence over the Western media and businesses.
So I feel this is an issue we should all think about and this issue is not easy to solve. However, eventually when everyone knows and understands the CCP’s conspiracy, we will be able to find a way to cope with it. It will not be easy; it will need our continuous effort.
Falun Gong Safeguarding Their Rights
Lin Chong: We see a new force happening in China, that is, Chinese people’s struggle to safeguard their legal rights and strive for democracy. The Falun Gong group, which has been persecuted by the CCP since 1999 is one example. How would you value the influence Falun Gong has on China’s democratic movement in its fight to safeguard its belief and rights?
Wei Jingsheng: I think the efforts by all community groups from all social classes to fight for their own rights are part of the Chinese people’s struggle for democracy and freedom. Falun Gong friends may have taken a relatively restrained attitude in the past, as the situation develops and people’s effort progresses and becomes more open, safeguarding their rights have gradually become their work focus.
This also proves that in reality, people do not want to oppose the CCP, but the CCP opposes the people and hence force people to resist it.
When being driven beyond the limit of tolerance, we have to rebel against you. Rising up against oppression is a natural right; it cannot be ruled by anyone or taken away by anyone. Hence these kinds of actions will slowly integrate into a bigger trend. In fact, this trend is the process of democratization for China. This is not an activity that can be monopolized by any political power, political party or group. This is an activity for all people. Of course Falun Gong members are also part of the people, so they will join this powerful trend. So it does not surprise me, as I feel this is a natural development.
